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Re: Fan motors #207158
09/29/12 01:35 PM
09/29/12 01:35 PM
H
harold endean  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
I might have posted this one before, you know getting old and forgetful. Anyway, in house with bathroom fans where the fan motor is in the attic, and the motor can be activated from several different bathrooms. The bath fan motor is a fractional HP, is a disconnect switch (snap switch) needed by the fan? Can you install a breaker lock in the panel for that circuit? (Even though there would be other outlets on that circuit including an attic light.)
Any thoughts?

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Re: Fan motors [Re: harold endean] #207159
09/29/12 02:00 PM
09/29/12 02:00 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,225
Estero,Fl,usa
Code wise a properly labeled breaker with a lock should be compliant but since the light is also on this circuit, a local switch certainly makes more sense. I am not sure it would even cost more.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Fan motors [Re: harold endean] #207162
09/29/12 03:55 PM
09/29/12 03:55 PM
Scott35  Offline

Broom Pusher and
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,708
Anaheim, CA. USA
I am almost 100% sure that the Branch Circuit Overcurrent Device may also serve as the Disconnecting Means (Motor of 1/8 HP max. in a fixed location...)
Heck, if the Blower Assembly is Cord and Plug connected, the Disconnecting Means could be done by Unplugging the Cord from the Receptacle.

The above Should meet minimal compliance, per 2008 NEC - or more accurately in Californ-ieee-yaaa, the 2010 CEC (Title 24, Part 3: Californ-iee-yaa Electrical Code).

IIRC, Motors of 2.0 HP and less would require some type of Local Disconnecting means - i.e.: General Use Toggle Switch, Motor Rated Switch ("Manual Starters"), EXO type Safety Switch, etc.

Personal input:
All the Roof Mounted Exhaust Fans I have seen/installed/fixed/serviced, or inserted as a Block on Electrical Plans [denoted and specified after inserting the appropriate Block, which looks like " \O\ " ... helps if you are drunk ;)]
have / had a Snap Switch mounted external to the Assembly, either directly to it, or within 5 Feet of the Assembly.

Not that this is the only way to achieve Compliance to whatever Code(s) will be applicable to the Equipment, only this is the most prevailing Disconnecting Means method I am used to.

-- Scott (EE)


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Re: Fan motors [Re: harold endean] #207168
09/30/12 01:45 PM
09/30/12 01:45 PM
H
harold endean  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
Greg,


Would sec. 430.109 (B) mean that the circuit breaker can be used as the disconnect means? If so, would you need a breaker lock on it?

Re: Fan motors [Re: harold endean] #207169
09/30/12 02:12 PM
09/30/12 02:12 PM
H
harold endean  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
Scott,

As we all know the code is a minimum and we all know what good mechanics should do. However if you get someone, who just wants to do the minimum, because of low bid, then I will have to quote him chapter and verse where it is enforced in the code book.
Now if he has a breaker lock on the circuit, it can be the required disconnect as per 430.109 (B).

Also by the same scenario if the attic light is on the same circuit as the bath fan and the EC locks it out to work on the fan motor, he now can't see the motor.

So if I look at a job and there is no circuit breaker lock and no snap switch for the motor should the job fail?

Maybe under sec. 430.102(B)(1)?

Re: Fan motors [Re: harold endean] #207171
09/30/12 02:40 PM
09/30/12 02:40 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,225
Estero,Fl,usa
Short answer, yes.

I really prefer the local disconnect switch but the code still allows a breaker lock.
I wonder how many of these breaker lock devices ever get used.
I was hard enough to enforce LOTO procedures in managed commercial installations. I bet residential use is in fractions of one percent. Do residential electricians even have LOTO equipment on their trucks? Certainly the homeowner or the handyman doesn't. I do have a LOTO tag in all of my breaker boxes on a short piece of #12 that goes in the hole of a breaker handle, just for my protection.

Ever forget? Happened to me. wink


Greg Fretwell
Re: Fan motors [Re: harold endean] #207175
09/30/12 08:01 PM
09/30/12 08:01 PM
H
harold endean  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
Greg,

I know what you mean about LOTO and when I was in business and I had 4 trucks all of my trucks had a LOTO kits. Did they use it? Who knows for sure. PLUS, I also had 3 licensed electrical contractors working for me. I am pretty sure that most of those LOTO just gathered dust.

This still leaves me with a question, should a bathroom fan that has several switches in different rooms need a snap switch to act as a disconnect for the 1 motor that is in the attic?

Re: Fan motors [Re: harold endean] #207176
09/30/12 08:37 PM
09/30/12 08:37 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,967
Brick, NJ USA
Harold:
Sounds like you're going to have to make a call on that. IF the cb gets LOTO, the attic light & whatever else may be on that circuit is DOA.

A snap switch; cord & plug, or a real disco within sight? As it cannot be locked 'off' without creating a possible life safety issue due to no light in the area of the motor, and (I'll stretch here) there are 'multiple switches' that may energize the circuit, then it needs a means of disconnect within site.

Although the letter of the Code allows a CB lockout, doing that in your case creates a life safety issue. One question please, is there a receptacle in the attic?? Is it on the same circuit??


John
Re: Fan motors [Re: harold endean] #207177
10/01/12 02:10 PM
10/01/12 02:10 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,225
Estero,Fl,usa
I bet, setting a box with a snap switch is cheaper than any of the other solutions. Those breaker lock out kits are not cheap.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Fan motors [Re: gfretwell] #207181
10/01/12 08:19 PM
10/01/12 08:19 PM
S
sparkyinak  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,334
Alaska
Here's a thought. Aren't motors suppose to have a service disconnect switch within line of site if the motor it serves?...


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