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Re: Balcony [Re: harold endean] #205340 02/12/12 07:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
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harold endean Offline OP
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Greg and John,


Just for the record, this isn't an inspection that I am doing. An EC just asked me the question. He was failed in a different town for not having the receptacle out there. However I have seen many houses where the handrail runs right up against the door frame, and I was wondering what I would do, if the problem arose for me.

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Re: Balcony [Re: harold endean] #205344 02/12/12 11:54 PM
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Posts: 457
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Jim M Offline
Member
This is one when the minimum square footage exception made sense. Maybe it is time for it to come back, but maybe with a smaller minimum square footage.

Re: Balcony [Re: harold endean] #205358 02/13/12 03:37 PM
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ghost307 Offline
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The problem with any type of minimum square footage is that as soon as you codify a hard-and-fast rule people will work overtime to find a way around it.
We had rules for Bathrooms...people invented 'Powder Room'.
We had rules for Kitchens...people invented 'Break Room'.
As soon as we set a lower limit of 12 sq.ft. for balconies...people will either invent 'exterior viewing area' or find a way to build them to be 11.999 sq. ft.

IMHO, that's why we will always need 90.4; so the AHJ can catch folks who try to slither through on a technicality.


Ghost307
Re: Balcony [Re: harold endean] #205359 02/13/12 07:03 PM
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Tesla Offline
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I don't see that as a crippler.

The rationale for a receptacle at deck height is the need -- triggered by the functionality of the space for everything from festive lighting to BBQs.

At 4x5 feet, 20 square feet is going to provide a GFCI receptacle for anything larger than a landing.

11.999 square feet will always be rounded off -- to 20 sq ft.

-------

GFCI receptacles have gotten so cheap - and their safety value so apparent - that the Code is placing them all over the place.

Trying to design them out ( value engineering ) is a total waste of effort, in my opinion.

-------

In my commercial installation experience -- we don't even attempt to chain GFCI receptacles -- the end user would never be able to figure out where to re-set the tripped device.



Tesla
Re: Balcony [Re: harold endean] #205364 02/14/12 11:30 AM
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Posts: 5,316
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
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Ironically, we can run into competing interests here. The NEC isn't the only factor at work.

I don't see too many balconies that are not part of high-rise, high density housing. Over the years, I've encountered all manner of leases that stipulated "NO laundry" and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to hear a landlord object to a balcony being used for anything at all.

As you might guess, such landlords are not about to put in receptacles to frustrate their policies. Places are deliberately designed this way, and for that reason. Why else are there so many places where the only thermostat is in the boiler room?

As the NEC gets into 'design,' it leaves the arena of safety and enters the realm of social engineering.

Re: Balcony [Re: harold endean] #205622 03/14/12 09:53 AM
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harold endean Offline OP
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As Ghost has said, once you have a rule, some people will try to engineer around it. The code use to say that if you have a service and that was over 6' wide AND over 1200 amp., you needed 2 means of egress. I once saw where a large box store had it's equipment specially made so that the width of the equipment didn't exceed 6' wide. Now the code says 6' wide OR over 1200 amp.

Re: Balcony [Re: harold endean] #205729 03/25/12 12:18 PM
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luckyshadow Offline
Member
I know a condo complex that had a bunch of the balconies as described in this post. They are as wide as the patio doors. We had them install the required receptacle above the railing on the fixed panel side of the patio door. Turned out pretty good too. The EC used those siding blocks that are installed prior to the siding and they match the siding as well. Blended right in

Re: Balcony [Re: harold endean] #205733 03/25/12 02:53 PM
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pdh Offline
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Originally Posted by harold endean
As Ghost has said, once you have a rule, some people will try to engineer around it. The code use to say that if you have a service and that was over 6' wide AND over 1200 amp., you needed 2 means of egress. I once saw where a large box store had it's equipment specially made so that the width of the equipment didn't exceed 6' wide. Now the code says 6' wide OR over 1200 amp.

They will put in French doors and call it two doors.

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