ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Shout Box
Recent Posts
MRI LED lights dimmer control replacement - wow!
by Potseal. 01/19/18 08:52 PM
VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs
by sparky. 01/19/18 08:03 PM
Video: Inventor of the GFCI self-testing shocks
by Bill Addiss. 01/17/18 11:11 PM
FPE in Germany
by HotLine1. 01/17/18 07:07 PM
Fujifilm Recalls Power Adapter Wall Plugs
by Admin. 01/16/18 07:04 PM
New in the Gallery:
Housebilding DIY wiring
SE cable question
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 12 guests, and 14 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
3 wire feeder #201108
05/11/11 11:22 PM
05/11/11 11:22 PM
S
schenimann  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 193
Western North Carolina
I've got a customer who is selling his house. He had his home inspection. One of the things noted was a 3 wire feeder to a small sub panel for his furnace. This panel now has 5-6 breakers feeding lights, a waterfall pump with a timer, etc. It is fed from a 200amp sub panel that is fed with 4 wires with the grounds and neutrals separated. Obviously it is a code violation however when I explained to him the fix (cutting, patching, drilling) he decided to put it off for the new home owners. What are the potential hazards of this set-up if any?

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Re: 3 wire feeder [Re: schenimann] #201109
05/12/11 03:04 AM
05/12/11 03:04 AM
noderaser  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 404
Portland, Oregon, United State...
Could be problems if the potential buyers have a home inspection; depending on how picky they are, they may ask that things like that be brought up to code as part of the terms of sale. This is especially true if they're looking at an FHA loan, they will want pretty much everything to be code-compliant, if it wasn't grandfathered in somehow.

Last edited by noderaser; 05/12/11 03:06 AM.
Re: 3 wire feeder [Re: schenimann] #201111
05/12/11 10:52 AM
05/12/11 10:52 AM
S
sparkyinak  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,328
Alaska
I'm still working on my first cup of coffee. Something is not clicking in my brain. What is the violation? The grounds and neutrals are suppose to be seperate in a sub-panel


"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa
Re: 3 wire feeder [Re: schenimann] #201112
05/12/11 11:03 AM
05/12/11 11:03 AM
Niko  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 356
Campbell, CA
if you have two hots, (1) neutral, (1) EGC i don't see anything wrong with this installation. Assuming everything is installed correctly.

The home inspector may have added the rating of the breakers and saw that the size of the feeder doesn't match the total amp rating of the breakers so he/she called it a violation or a hazard.

Then again at the beginning of your post you mention a 3 wire feeder and changed it to 4 wires.


Last edited by Niko; 05/12/11 11:03 AM.

Be kind to your neighbor, he knows where you live

Re: 3 wire feeder [Re: schenimann] #201115
05/12/11 02:33 PM
05/12/11 02:33 PM
G
Gregtaylor  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 212
Boise, Idaho, USA
So you have a 200a subpanel with a 4 wire feeder feeding another subpanel with a 3 wire feeder that was originally for the furnace only and now has 120 volt loads connected to it using the EGC as the grounded conductor. Is that right?
I'm sure that as someone able to recognize the code violation, you also recognize the hazard. You either have an uninsulated or undersized conductor being used as a current carrying conductor or you have no grounding at all.

Re: 3 wire feeder [Re: schenimann] #201116
05/12/11 02:56 PM
05/12/11 02:56 PM
Niko  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 356
Campbell, CA
If it is a cable type feeder and If the EGC is being used as a current carrying conductor it is a violation.

Then again, if the feeder is installed in a metallic conduit you still have a 3 conductor feeder but are using the metallic conduit as a EGC and have 2 hots and a neutral then your installation is ok. assuming the EGC is not being used as a current carrying conductor.


Be kind to your neighbor, he knows where you live

Re: 3 wire feeder [Re: schenimann] #201117
05/12/11 04:17 PM
05/12/11 04:17 PM
G
gfretwell  Online Content

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,166
Estero,Fl,usa
The danger of having a 3 wire feeder with a shared EGC and neutral is that you end up with voltage on your ground. Before the exception was removed for separate building feeders the rationalization was that you were providing a local ground electrode system, much like what happens with the service. The fact is, if you actually look at the GEC in your house, you will usually see neutral current there too and that is also demonstrating a voltage drop in that 3 wire SE cable neutral/ground.
The problem inside your house is that you will see a voltage gradient between the grounded case of equipment from this 3 wire sub and a truly grounded item like a cold water pipe in a metal plumbing system.


Greg Fretwell
Re: 3 wire feeder [Re: schenimann] #201119
05/12/11 09:31 PM
05/12/11 09:31 PM
S
schenimann  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 193
Western North Carolina
thanks for the help. I did explain to him that it was a violation, however, in the end it is his decision to have it repaired or leave it. All I can do is inform. Whenever he gets a potential buyer, I guess they will make the final decision as to the repair.

The feeder is a 3 wire cable with the egc going back the egc bus in the main.

Re: 3 wire feeder [Re: schenimann] #201122
05/13/11 05:37 PM
05/13/11 05:37 PM
M
mikesh  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 613
Victoria, BC, Canada
Is there a duty to report clause in your state's legislation? The province of BC's Safety Standards act makes that knowledge reportable and if it could be proved you did not report it to the inspection authority you could become label for damages should anyone get hurt. Using the bond wire as a current carrying conductor can set up a shock hazard to non current carrying parts of the bonding system.
I hate talking to my neighbours about electrical matters and tell them to stop before they reveal anything I may have a duty to report.
It is a little like asking the policeman living next door over to your pot party ;-)

Re: 3 wire feeder [Re: schenimann] #201125
05/14/11 01:48 AM
05/14/11 01:48 AM
G
gfretwell  Online Content

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,166
Estero,Fl,usa
In the US I do not know of any law that says you have to report a code violation but if you, as a professional, working on it, may have the obligation to fix it if you touch it. This all gets back to those "rehab" or "existing building" codes we talk about here.



Greg Fretwell
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Featured:

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
Bill Addiss
Bill Addiss
NY, USA
Posts: 3,890
Joined: October 2000
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
Admin 20
Potseal 15
sparky 15
Popular Topics(Views)
243,565 Are you busy
180,366 Re: Forum
170,843 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1
(Release build 20180101)
Page Time: 0.028s Queries: 16 (0.004s) Memory: 1.0268 MB (Peak: 1.2084 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-01-20 16:58:28 UTC