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Re: Kitchens and CEC rules [Re: twh] #194530 06/07/10 02:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
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mikesh Offline
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I asked a Guy that does product approvals and these appliances over 12 amps should have a sticker that states for household use or domestic use. TWH provided the clue the reduced wire size is like the #8 for a range at or under 12 KW being allowed to use an 8 kw demand in domestic use.
Most commercial appliances have no demand factor and I should expect a 20 amp t-slot plug if rated for continuous duty.

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Re: Kitchens and CEC rules [Re: twh] #194532 06/07/10 04:50 PM
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jdevlin Offline
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13a on a 15 amp cicuit should not be a problem. It is not a continuous use device so the 80% rule does not apply. Every hair dryer made would require 20amp plug if that was the case.

Re: Kitchens and CEC rules [Re: jdevlin] #194724 06/17/10 05:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
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ahickey Offline
New Member
This is a good topic and good info, I keep forgetting to apply the continuous/non-continuous use part of the code.


If one is doing work in a kitchen, is one required to upgrade all existing receptacles near the sink to GFCI protection, or can they be left as-is if they were not part of what the customer wanted done?

For instance, can one just leave an existing duplex receptacle connected to its existing 14/3 circuit with no other changes? Reading this as I've written it out, it sounds really stupid to ask, but.. I'd like to know the proper way to do it. I'm an apprentice, have asked a few contractors about this and have got various answers, all different, such as:

a) You must install a 2 pole 15a GFCI breaker to protect that 14/3 circuit, the customer won't like the cost but oh well
b) Cap off the black of the 14/3 and hook the red up to a 15A GFCI receptacle, its not code but at least there's GFCI protection if the toaster ends up in the sink, disregard box fill issues
c) Open the wall up and fish a 12/2 in there, even though that wall was not originally to have any electrical work done to it. Incur extra cost for patching.
d) Leave it the way it is, it passed inspection (theoretically) when it was originally installed, perhaps put a new decora outlet on it but don't spend any more time than that. Any new outlets near the sink get put on a 12/2 & GFCI however.


(Not related to kitchens - are there any meetings of contractors/inspectors in the Vancouver area that would accept an apprentice who wants to listen? Would like to keep increasing my knowledge of the trade but am not really sure where to look..)

Re: Kitchens and CEC rules [Re: ahickey] #194730 06/17/10 02:49 PM
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mikesh Offline
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One of the basic principles of electrical installations is a code change in 2009 does not retroactively force upgrades to work done under a previous code. The original installation must be maintained and still adequate for the original purpose.
Some jurisdictions have upgrade policies and unless the place where your working has such a bylaw I would say you do not have to upgrade recpetacles that were approved under a previous code.
In my jurisdiction if the drywall comes off then the electrical must meet current requirements before the wall can be closed. So in your kitchen reno if they tear out the cabinets and change the tile on the wall I would not require you to Upgrade. Reconfigure the kitchen layout like move sinks, relocate the fridge or range and find the counter plugs don't even meet the original code then upgrades will happen. So if your 14-3 counter plugs are still correctly located You can leave them as installed. New plugs per current code.
Obviously when ever we find that new code requirements are more stringent is is pretty hard to understand why the plug to the right of the sink is GFCI protected on 12-2 with a t slot GFCI and the one on the other side is a split 15.

Re: Kitchens and CEC rules [Re: ahickey] #199936 03/14/11 09:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 28
mersadrad Offline
Member
Dougwells, Mikesh, and Trumpy I admire and respect you guys on defending trade. Thank you smile .

Now, it is violation of code to use 15A recepticle as a feed trough the GFCI ( 20A) . You have to use the same AWG from panel to the last recepticle.
Exeption when use baseboard heating inder distance 7.5m ( you can use 14AWG instead 2AWG )



Originally Posted by ahickey

(Not related to kitchens - are there any meetings of contractors/inspectors in the Vancouver area that would accept an apprentice who wants to listen? Would like to keep increasing my knowledge of the trade but am not really sure where to look..)


I am interested in the same thing still searching. I did 4 projects at school and member od school board, and meating new people I hope I will start working soon. This is exelent sourse, specially when we have people defending us. Not( yet) electricians, nor inspectors, but those related to trade people :)) tnx.

And I would sugest you if you let me, don't listen bad Electricians, Code is your passport.

Mersad...


“If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there”.
Re: Kitchens and CEC rules [Re: ahickey] #199948 03/15/11 08:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
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pooL8 Offline
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Quote
If one is doing work in a kitchen, is one required to upgrade all existing receptacles near the sink to GFCI protection, or can they be left as-is if they were not part of what the customer wanted done?


One is not required to upgrade an existing installation if it passed code in the past, unless it is added to in the present. Then it is considered a new installation, because theoretically it becomes part of the Permit.
Check out BC Safety Authority website for the Electrical Regulations... on Contractors, FSRs, Permits etc.

Quote
a) You must install a 2 pole 15a GFCI breaker to protect that 14/3 circuit, the customer won't like the cost but oh well
Sure, that is to code, but an unnecessary cost to the customer. Personally I would feel bad about not giving the customer their choices. And that is an expensive breaker!
Quote
b) Cap off the black of the 14/3 and hook the red up to a 15A GFCI receptacle, its not code but at least there's GFCI protection if the toaster ends up in the sink, disregard box fill issues
Not code, not legal, but it works. I wouldn't do it... so long as there is 'someone to catch me'.
Quote
c) Open the wall up and fish a 12/2 in there, even though that wall was not originally to have any electrical work done to it. Incur extra cost for patching.
And wire, and breaker, and receptacle, and labour. Say... $2.50/m + $20 + $25 + 2hr labour.
Quote
d) Leave it the way it is, it passed inspection (theoretically) when it was originally installed, perhaps put a new decora outlet on it but don't spend any more time than that. Any new outlets near the sink get put on a 12/2 & GFCI however.
sounds good.


Re: Kitchens and CEC rules [Re: ahickey] #199950 03/15/11 09:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 56
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pooL8 Offline
Member
Quote
Not related to kitchens - are there any meetings of contractors/inspectors in the Vancouver area that would accept an apprentice who wants to listen?

What makes you think that you wouldn't be accepted?

Inspector is there for YOU. And he LIKES THE CODE!!
Call him, ask him when he's in his office next... can you pop in and ask a few questions?...Are there any tech-talks being held soon?

Take an FSR code course. It is mandatory for taking the FSR exam, but when I went, there was everyone from 1st year apprentices to large company contractors attending, all together. A lot of good questions from everyone.
The apprentices where there for no reason except they wanted to be.

Put your questions up in this forum.

Quote
Would like to keep increasing my knowledge of the trade but am not really sure where to look


I think it's more HOW you look at what's already there.

Sometimes we don't know what to look for, cause we don't even know it's a possibility. We see what we expect to see. There came a point where I lost expectation, and started looking at what was really there... as a wider perspective. Then I found that I had to learn it all over again, in a new way.
Sometimes that keeps happening over and over again. The info doesn't change, but YOU do.
Is that vague enough?

Re: Kitchens and CEC rules [Re: Mr_Questions] #199992 03/16/11 07:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 28
mersadrad Offline
Member
It is nicely said. I would post this question if Ahickey does not mind.
I visit this forum every day and I think I will continue to do so for 0-0 time smile .



“If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there”.
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