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Re: Insulated Tools: A Waste of Money? [Re: KJay] #198460 01/23/11 01:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,273
T
Tesla Offline
Member
LOTO simply does not work during the manic construction of a food store. We're talking hundreds of circuits across many panels some place in the back of the store + panels elsewhere in the departments.

The procedure is to prohibit all but a short list of lead men and the general foreman the right to energize a circuit.



Tesla
Arc Flash PPE Clothing, LOTO & Insulated Tools
Re: Insulated Tools: A Waste of Money? [Re: KJay] #198466 01/23/11 02:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
renosteinke Offline OP
Cat Servant
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In the military they call it "mission creep." That's when a limited deployment, intended to protect an airfield, grows into a seven-year tropical expidition. Oops.

In our trade, we've been quite comfortable using simple, ordinary, dry leather gloves, simple tools, and cautious practices to make service connections. WHen inside a panel, a wrap of tape around a screwdriver was enough to keep us from letting the smoke out of components.

Various doctrines came about, mandating the use of safety glasses for every moment on site. Even hard hats became routine, more a fashion statement than anything else in most cases. When some cheap clothing was shown to make a minor event a major injury, we simply wanted to not wear such 'mother-in-law silk.'

But, hey, if 'some' s good, 'more' is better, right? Besides, WHO says your gear is appropriate? Everyone and his dog wanted a say ... we can't trust those ignorant trade types to make any decisions!

So we end up with NFPA70-E, which would have you wear a moon suit to change a light bulb. OK, maybe I exaggerate ... but the following statements are not exaggerations:

If there's the least POSSIBILITY of there being power present, you need to 'suit up' until you've PROVEN all power is locked out.

At a minimum level, that PPE includes a hard hat, safety glasses, face shield, fire resistant clothing, gloves and liners.

The "hard hat" needs to be an electrically rated one. Many places forbid the 'cowboy' style hats, even though they ARE rated. "Safety" is used to enforce an ignorant bias.

I'm not sure if an 'ordinary' face shield meets the minimum level, or if it needs to be one of the funky greenish 'arc flash rated' ones.

It's not enough that the clothing simply not be of the proven dangerous polyester type. No, they want it officially stamped as complying with some standard. The heavy welders' jackets -even leathers- lack the stamp, so are not recognized. This situation is improving as more stuff gets rated, but for now bureaucracy trumps common sense.

Ordinary gloves are out. Now not only need there be rubber liners, those liners need to be certified every six months by an independent testing place. It matters not that the gloves are brand new and set in the box for six months - where's the certifcate?

Notice that there's NO role in this for insulated tools. Whatever the tools are for, they're not insulated to protect you.

Nor is it enought to wrap the tools in tape. Our friends at Klein actually had the gall to sell 'high dielectric insulated' tools and at the same time insist that the insulation had NO voltage rating. When we finally accepted the German standard, we got the current version of 'insulated' tools ... but using those expensive tools does not lessen the required PPE one bit.

Re: Insulated Tools: A Waste of Money? [Re: renosteinke] #198512 01/24/11 08:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 763
K
KJay Offline
Member
Let me just say, I hear you and I understand. Iím not for taking obscene unnecessary risk and obviously it depends on the particular situation, but there has, and always will be a time when the proper equipment and knowhow are needed to safely perform what can otherwise be an inherently dangerous job. Specifically in the case of dealing with energized equipment 600V or less, since these are the most common voltages most of us deal with on a daily basis.
Equipment designed, intended and proven acceptable for the purpose already exists for this very reason, so why not promote the reality of learning how to use it properly in these situations, instead of being told to turn and run. To me, this is what the term professional means and is all about.

Re: Insulated Tools: A Waste of Money? [Re: KJay] #198518 01/25/11 03:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 68
H
homer Offline
Member
Well, it is all fun and games until somebody gets hurt and then the first call the family of the deceased or badly injured makes is to an attorney. Several years ago my company along with the property owner ( a large computer company) settled for $1 million for an electrician's death. Soon after that, the safety rules became much more onerous.

But I do agree with you guys about electrical work being inherently dangerous. It is important to work with property owners to determine a safe method, since they are going to be most vulnerable to a large settlement or suit. We have a form that the property owner has to sign which acknowledges that they accept responsibility. Usually after reading the lawyer speak, they indicate a willingness to find a time to turn off power.

We are also required to fill out hot work permit forms and work up a detailed plan which must be approved by the safety guy. Accurate one-line drawings are an electricians best friend!

Re: Insulated Tools: A Waste of Money? [Re: homer] #198520 01/25/11 09:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
renosteinke Offline OP
Cat Servant
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Homer ... you've got me curious. Could you post the thing you have the customer sign?

(If you're worried about confidentiality, send it to me as a PM, and I will use my software to edit out any identifying specifics before posting)

Re: Insulated Tools: A Waste of Money? [Re: mikesh] #198752 02/02/11 11:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,379
Trumpy Offline
Member
Originally Posted by mikesh
Tape up the shaft of the screw driver and bob is your uncle.

Mike,
I really hope that that comment was made in jest or sarcasm.

Re: Insulated Tools: A Waste of Money? [Re: renosteinke] #198832 02/05/11 03:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 109
N
njelectricmaster Offline
Member
Check out the carhart "FR" clothing line. I have been using it for a couple of years and i am very happy with It. Using cat 2 shirts and jeans with a cat 4 coat and balaclava. I also use elvex face shield w/hardhat. very comfortable.

I know that it seems daunting all the regulations in the 70e, but comming home alive is always a good thing. Remember that the standards are there because of past stupidity.

Most of the time the clothing I mentioned will cover the letter of the code, and moon suit not always needed.


Jon Niemeyer
Re: Insulated Tools: A Waste of Money? [Re: renosteinke] #199528 02/28/11 06:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,803
Alan Belson Offline
Member
And meanwhile, despite all the well-meaning regulation designed to mitigate injury and prevent accidents, we still have the amateur Joe Muggins playing with death.
F'rinstance, this Herbert!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmXMpTsMJj4&feature=related

Look closely. 10 bottles of vodka[?] on the bench, a roll of kitchen paper cunningly placed to invite ignition and all in an area full of wood and other inflammable junk. Notice too the bare hand, the state-of-the-art wooden 'insulated' pole made from an old chair-leg and the hi-tec string holding the [green!] wire to the 6" nail electrode. eek


Wood work but can't!
Re: Insulated Tools: A Waste of Money? [Re: renosteinke] #199530 02/28/11 06:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 947
T
twh Offline
Member
Someone filmed me using a welder?

Re: Insulated Tools: A Waste of Money? [Re: Alan Belson] #199538 03/01/11 08:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 28
Vlado Offline
Member
Originally Posted by Alan Belson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmXMpTsMJj4&feature=related

Look closely. 10 bottles of vodka[?] on the bench, a roll of kitchen paper cunningly placed to invite ignition and all in an area full of wood and other inflammable junk. Notice too the bare hand, the state-of-the-art wooden 'insulated' pole made from an old chair-leg and the hi-tec string holding the [green!] wire to the 6" nail electrode. eek


Looks like the power supply of the ignited arc in the clip is only couple of kVA.That fact was most important factor for preventing arc flash burns.From ignorant fool the only worse thing is a drunk ignorant fool.
He should see how ignited arc from MVA power supply at same voltage level looks like and what it is capable of. grin

Last edited by Vlado; 03/01/11 08:25 AM.
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