ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat Box
Recent Posts
NEC 2017_392.22(B)(1)(b)
_What's the smallest width

by Bill Addiss - 09/17/19 07:13 PM
Another weird NEC code question on Feeder Taps
by pcsailor - 09/17/19 03:34 PM
Does a 'normal 3ph-AC motor' include capacitors?
by HotLine1 - 09/17/19 01:43 PM
NEC Question_Cord-&-Plug EGC shorter then Neutral
by pcsailor - 09/16/19 05:26 AM
Another NEC 2017 Question_240/24VAC Txfr-Neutral R
by pcsailor - 09/16/19 05:22 AM
New in the Gallery:
What is this for?
Plug terminals
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 6 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
grounding second story outlets #197636 12/12/10 02:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 193
S
schenimann Offline OP
Member
I am pricing a job of grounding outlets in an old house. The house is 2 story and has all (app 75) the outlets cut into the baseboards. Two questions. Am I better to remove the box, install ground wire and use a rework box for the new outlet. What is the best way to get to the second floor outlets. Do I remove the box and fish a ground down to the box(hopefully no purlins). There is a wide open attic with walking space. There is a old plank flooring down that can be removed if necessary. I haven't grounded outlets in a job like this before.


Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Re: grounding second story outlets [Re: schenimann] #197637 12/12/10 03:18 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,262
Trumpy Offline
Member
You are better off to just rewire the place.
Save yourself the pain down the track.
Do it once, do it properly.

This is one of the reasons why self-certification is good, you don't have people doing dodgy work that they have to sign for.

Re: grounding second story outlets [Re: Trumpy] #197639 12/12/10 10:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,044
Tom Offline
Member
Whichever way you decide to go, put in plenty of money. Re-wiring can be very time consuming and frustrating.

I think Trumpy has you on the right track. It is almost as much work to install an equipment ground as it is to install a new cable. If you go for installing equipment grounds, keep in mind at some point you may need to use #6 copper, see 250.120 (C)

When I was doing house re-wires, for a 2 story house, I usually took the new circuits up to the attic and dropped down to each receptacle. Perhaps you can determine how the house was wired and use the existing cables to pull in new cables.

To sum up, throw plenty of money into your quote. You could easily end up working for minimum wage or less. Rewiring is a good way to burn up man hours.

Since Trumpy is a Red Green fan, always keep your stick on the ice.


Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.
Re: grounding second story outlets [Re: Tom] #197641 12/12/10 11:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 947
T
twh Offline
Member
I don't think I've seen a house with the plugs in the baseboard that wasn't lathe and plaster. The would also mean K&T and K&T boxes. Around here, we call that a re-wire.

Re: grounding second story outlets [Re: twh] #197642 12/12/10 12:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
L
leland Offline
Member
I agree with the others,The time it will take for 1 conductor as opposed to a ckt.The same.
My experience: once you start messing with the K&T,you wind up replacing most of it anyway.

My thought would be,price out the material,then set a labor rate.

GFI,rarely work on a K&T setup,based on the way it is tapped hard to get all down stream covered with 1..If this route is taken,go with breakers.

Re: grounding second story outlets [Re: leland] #197643 12/12/10 04:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 193
S
schenimann Offline OP
Member
The house in k&t. Can I install gfcis at each outlet or at least the ones that are unaccesible. I don't know exactly what he wants. I got the info from the GC. I like the idea of doing it right and pulling new circuits. however I don't know if the homeowner had a rewire in mind. The HO had an earlier quote of $25 per outlet. A set price on a job like this makes me cringe unless it is over and above like you said. I like the material and labor cost quote.

This quote also involves a service upgrade. Outside of these jobs I am rewiring the kitchen, guest room and porch for the GC.

Re: grounding second story outlets [Re: schenimann] #197645 12/12/10 06:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 763
K
KJay Offline
Member
I think you could lose your shirt on this job with that fixed price. Often with K&T, if you so much as bend or otherwise disturb the wire the insulation disintegrates and you are now back to square one. The existing device boxes may be too small for the addition volume of another conductor.
Fishing new NM cables in a building with balloon construction shouldn’t be too bad. You can often fish new feeds alongside the chimney right up to the attic.
Just a thought, but I think if a permit is going to be pulled for the job, as it should be [CYA], the inspector might as well be consulted ahead of time as to what he thinks, as that is likely what will make or break the job. That also puts this job on his radar, so that it will be more difficult for the HO or GC to award the job to someone that has undercut legitimate bids because they are unlicensed or otherwise working without a permit.


Re: grounding second story outlets [Re: KJay] #197646 12/12/10 10:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,273
T
Tesla Offline
Member
The FIRST question: is it balloon construction?

IF it is, then fishing tends to be a breeze -- even to the second floor.

I agree with others... Skip the bonding conductor -- go with Romex.

Expect to swap out the panel and provide room for AFCIs.

I rather expect that this upgrade is at the insistence of lenders/insurers.



Tesla
Re: grounding second story outlets [Re: Tesla] #197649 12/13/10 12:45 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 193
S
schenimann Offline OP
Member
Thank guys,
I sent the quote on. time and materials.

Re: grounding second story outlets [Re: schenimann] #197653 12/13/10 10:21 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
H
harold endean Offline
Member
There is another option, though it may not look as pretty. You can always use Wiremold and go around the room with that equipment. It might be quicker than trying to get to each individual outlet.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Featured:

2020 National Electrical Code
2020 National Electrical
Code (NEC)

* * * * * * *

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
The Watt Doctor
The Watt Doctor
Mont Belvieu, TX
Posts: 437
Joined: December 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
Admin 6
Popular Topics(Views)
258,601 Are you busy
194,194 Re: Forum
183,668 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3