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210.5 (C) enforce? #196587
10/15/10 04:31 PM
10/15/10 04:31 PM
Niko  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 356
Campbell, CA
If you are installing a 2 wire AC or MC cable in a building that has 480-277V 240-120V, the code says the ungrounded conductor has to be reidentified for each system. My question is:

Do you special order MC or AC cable with different colored ungrounded conductors or use 2 conductor cable and re-identifiy the conductor?

I may have read that smaller than #4 can not be reidentified (exception do apply to grounded conductors).



Be kind to your neighbor, he knows where you live

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Re: 210.5 (C) enforce? [Re: Niko] #196589
10/15/10 05:18 PM
10/15/10 05:18 PM
LEO_304E  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 17
MASSACHUSETTS
Originally Posted by Niko
If you are installing a 2 wire AC or MC cable in a building that has 480-277V 240-120V, the code says the ungrounded conductor has to be reidentified for each system. My question is:

Do you special order MC or AC cable with different colored ungrounded conductors or use 2 conductor cable and re-identifiy the conductor?

I may have read that smaller than #4 can not be reidentified (exception do apply to grounded conductors).

You can buy type M/C &A/C cable with the different color Brown Orange Yellow for 480/277volts but it is not used that much out there. on the larger cables we use tape to re idetifie at splice points , but on #10 #12 Circuits we just mark the box covers with the voltage smile

Re: 210.5 (C) enforce? [Re: LEO_304E] #196592
10/15/10 08:26 PM
10/15/10 08:26 PM
Niko  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 356
Campbell, CA
I appreciate your feedback,

Is #6 and smaller conductors allowed to be re-identified from black to other finish?

i believe it can't but i can't find the code section.


Be kind to your neighbor, he knows where you live

Re: 210.5 (C) enforce? [Re: Niko] #196595
10/15/10 11:18 PM
10/15/10 11:18 PM
W
wewire2  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 244
California
I find it a little confusing. 200.6 states that #6 and smaller shall be identified by a continuous white or gray outer finish on other than green wire along its entire length. So it seems that you could apply a finish layer of tape along the entire wire.(lots of work!) However,if you read the detailed interpretation in the handbook it states
"for 6 AWG or smaller, identification of the grounded conductor solely by distinctive white or gray marking at the time of installation is not permitted except as described for flexible cords and multiconductor cables" .......
So, by the interpretation, are they saying that you cannot mark it, as in a few wraps of tape at the termination or are they saying you cannot re-identify it at all for use as a neutral? The rules for identifying a #6 or smaller green wire read the same except 250.119 states that you can't use a green wire as a neutral(grounded conductor)
except for a particular low voltage exception. Any comments anyone?

Re: 210.5 (C) enforce? [Re: wewire2] #196596
10/15/10 11:45 PM
10/15/10 11:45 PM
Niko  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 356
Campbell, CA
For the grounded conductor it says smaller than 6 you can't re-identify the conductor. another words if need a grounded conductor and all you have on the truck is #8 black, you can't use the black# 8 and wrap phase tape.
So for grounded conductor #4 and larger you can use phase tape at the time of termination.

But my questions is for smaller than #4 ungrounded conductors, can they be re identified?


Be kind to your neighbor, he knows where you live

Re: 210.5 (C) enforce? [Re: Niko] #196597
10/16/10 12:29 AM
10/16/10 12:29 AM
W
wewire2  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 244
California
It just says you can't re-identify it with a mark. A mark is a small token label such as a wrap of tape.
In my opinion, it's really up for AHJ interpretation since the wording is not specific enough to know the
real intention.

Re: 210.5 (C) enforce? [Re: Niko] #196598
10/16/10 01:44 AM
10/16/10 01:44 AM
Scott35  Offline

Broom Pusher and
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,708
Anaheim, CA. USA
Niko;

Quote

But my questions is for smaller than #4 ungrounded conductors, can they be re identified?


I see no reason why UNGROUNDED CONDUCTORS sized smaller than #4, may not be identified at the Terminations.

Viewing the Articles and Sections involved with Conductor Identification:

-------------------
-------------------

A: Identification of GROUNDED (AKA "Neutral") Conductors:
Article 200
Section 200.6

Conductor Identification = White or Gray...

Sizes Where Identification Methods change:

  • #4 and Larger may be identified at accessible Termination points (Colored Tape wraps at ends);
  • #6 and smaller to be continuously Color Coded (White or Gray Insulation).


.................................................

B: Identification of EQUIPMENT GROUNDING (AKA "Grounding") Conductors:
Article 250
Section 250.119

Insulated Conductor Identification = Green (or Green with one or more Yellow Stripes)...

Sizes Where Identification Methods change:

  • #4 and Larger may be identified at accessible Termination points (Colored Tape wraps at ends)...
    Section = 250.119(A);
  • #6 and smaller to be continuously Color Coded (Insulation Color to be Green)...
    Section = 250.120(C).


................................................

C: Identification of UNGROUNDED - HIGH VOLTAGE PHASE (AKA "High-Leg") Conductors:
Article 110
Section 110.15

Insulated Conductor Identification = Orange...

Sizes Where Identification Methods change:
N/A.

Qualifying Notes:
On 3 Phase 4 Wire Delta Systems, the Conductor or Bus Bar Kit(s) with the High Voltage to Ground Phase shall Identified with Orange Color Coding.
At locations on the System where a Grounded ("Neutral") Conductor is present, the High Voltage Phase shall be Identified by Orange Tagging.

No indications of Continuous Color Coding per sizes.
Identification Compliance is stated for tagging methods to be made at Connection Points - specifically where the System Grounded Conductor also exists.

.....................................................

D: Identification of UNGROUNDED (AKA "Hot") Conductors - for more than ONE (1) Premises Wiring Systems:
Article 210
Section 210.5(C)

Insulated Conductor Identification = Anything other than Green, White or Gray (not indicated verbatim in Section 210.5(C), but indirectly referenced in Articles 200, 215, 230, 250, 310, and 400)...

Sizes Where Identification Methods change:
N/A

Qualifying Notes:
No indications of Continuous Color Coding per sizes.
Identification Compliance is stated for tagging methods to be made at Accessible Points - specifically for Branch Circuitry where more than One (1) Nominal Voltage System exists on the same Premises.

< end code compliance references >
__________________________________________________________

According to the defined Sections, Ungrounded Conductors may be Identified at Termination Points, and Points of Accessibility (i.e.: Panelboards, Switchboards, Motor Controls, Pullboxes, etc.).
Identification is not required at Conduit Bodies (i.e.: LBs)

My opinion / view of the intentions behind the Size Specific Identification Methods for Grounded and Equipment Grounding Conductors, is the nominal applications where they would commonly be used per given sizes.
For example, Conductors sized #4 and larger would normally be relevant to Feeder Installations; whereas Conductors sized #6 and smaller would normally be relevant to Branch Circuitry.

In the case of Branch Circuitry, EGCs may be sized similar to the Ungrounded Conductors - more apparent with 15 Amp, 20 Amp and 30 Amp Branch Circuits.

Where Branch Circuit Conductor sizes have been increased for Voltage Drop compensation, the EGC size would also be increased, matching the size of the Active Branch Circuit Conductors.

Similar conditions would be experienced with Grounded Branch Circuit Conductors, in regards to the 15 Amp, 20 Amp and 30 Amp "Commonly Used" Branch Circuits.
The possibility for numerous Junction Boxes and Outlets being involved with Branch Circuits, appears to be the logic continuous Color Coding for "Smaller Conductors" - tagging the ends may not be feasible, and likely will not provide an effective permanent method.

Where Feeders are installed, they tend to be limited in access points, i.e.: Single Point-To-Point runs between...

  1. Source (Service or Distribution Section)

    and
  2. Application (Panelboard or Transformer)


Junction / Pull Points may or may not exist in Feeder runs.
Where these Access Points exist, the tagging method would be more effective, as the likelihood of QUALIFIED PERSONNEL gaining Access at these Points, _SHOULD_ be able to Identify the installation as a "Feeder".
They "-Normally-" would not be Accessing the Box, with intentions of connecting a small Load to an existing Wiring System...
This statement is highly debatable, however I am unsure of the best way to describe this possibility!

So, in conclusion;
The NEC does not directly place Restrictive Definitions on the Identification of Ungrounded Conductors per Specific sizes, per the Sections listed above. Only Identification at Terminations and Accessible Points is described.

By "Restrictive Definitions", I mean:

MANDATORY RULES: - Terms characterized as "Shall" and "Shall Not" (Specifically Required or Prohibited)

And / Or;

PERMISSIVE RULES: - Terms characterized as "Shall Be Permitted" and "Shall Not Be Required" (NOT Specifically Required or Prohibited).

Hope this reply offers some assistance.

Scott


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Re: 210.5 (C) enforce? [Re: Scott35] #196599
10/16/10 02:22 AM
10/16/10 02:22 AM
W
wewire2  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 244
California
Hi Scott

You wrote
"#6 and smaller to be continuously Color Coded (Insulation Color to be Green)...
Section = 250.120(C)."

250.120 (C) Refers to the protection of conductors smaller than #6
250.119 Just says that the outer finish needs to be green not the insulation.


Re: 210.5 (C) enforce? [Re: wewire2] #196601
10/16/10 05:41 AM
10/16/10 05:41 AM
Scott35  Offline

Broom Pusher and
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,708
Anaheim, CA. USA
wewire2;

Thanks for the response!

Man, I don't know why I placed the 250.120(C) reference!
I do not remember smoking any Crack - never smoked it before AFAIK wink

Per the Section reference, the following Addendum is issued:

"#6 and smaller to be continuously Color Coded (Insulation Color to be Green)...
Section = 250.119."

Text verbatim:

"Individually covered or
insulated equipment grounding conductors shall have a
continuous outer finish that is either green or green with
one or more yellow stripes except as permitted in this
section.
{A}

Conductors with insulation or individual covering
that is green, green with one or more yellow stripes, or
otherwise identified as permitted by this section shall not
be used for ungrounded or grounded circuit conductors."


Exception to the above Mandatory Note {A} is 250.119(A); EGCs larger than #6.

Now I must consume Raven (eat Crow), so I must go!

Scott


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Re: 210.5 (C) enforce? [Re: Scott35] #196604
10/16/10 02:44 PM
10/16/10 02:44 PM
W
wewire2  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 244
California
Haha! Scott you do great! Your posts are appreciated.

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