ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat
Recent Posts
Danish type K Sockets
by winston_1 - 10/25/21 07:30 PM
Flexible Conduit?
by gfretwell - 10/24/21 01:59 AM
May I backfeed 3 phase transformer?
by dsk - 10/22/21 04:37 AM
Wire sizing
by gfretwell - 10/21/21 10:12 PM
GFCI's pops in large numbers
by dsk - 10/21/21 02:03 AM
New in the Gallery:
240/208 to a house
240/208 to a house
by wa2ise, October 9
Now you know.
Now you know.
by Tom_Horne, September 7
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 33 guests, and 16 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 244
W
wewire2 Offline OP
Member
This is a fairly common situation: A 200 amp 480V meter/main w/breaker panel that needs to feed a 50 KVA stepdown transformer. The breaker lugs are rated down to #6 wire and the 100 amp primary protection fused disconnect lugs only accept up to #1/0 wire. Is there a good reason why there is not an exception in the tap rule that would allow feeding the disconnect from the breaker with #2 instead of having to go full sized and use pin terminals? A fused 200 amp meter/main solves the problem with 110 Amp fuses but they are not always available.

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,669
Likes: 6
G
Member
I may not be understanding you but if you are saying the 2ga conductors are protected by 100 a fuses on the load end, that sounds like a tap to me. You just need to follow the appropriate tap rules.
I may be misunderstanding the question tho.


Greg Fretwell
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 244
W
wewire2 Offline OP
Member
Greg, there are no provisions in the tap rules to feed a
smaller wire from a breaker but you can feed a smaller wire from a feeder as a tap. It doesn't make sense that there is
no provision in the code to allow feeding a smaller wire
from a breaker than what the breaker is rated at.

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,669
Likes: 6
G
Member
The tap rules are basically saying a tap conductor can be protected at the load end at it's rated ampacity. You are describing a feeder tap. The issues are just that you need to follow the appropriate tap rules for the length and wiring method.

If this is 25' or less we use 240.21(B)

(2) Taps Not over 7.5 m (25 ft) Long. Where the length of the tap conductors does not exceed 7.5 m (25 ft) and the tap conductors comply with all the following:

(1) The ampacity of the tap conductors is not less than one-third of the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the feeder conductors.


OK it is half of the main


(2) The tap conductors terminate in a single circuit breaker or a single set of fuses that limit the load to the ampacity of the tap conductors. This device shall be permitted to supply any number of additional overcurrent devices on its load side.

Yes


(3) The tap conductors are protected from physical damage by being enclosed in an approved raceway or by other approved means.


This is the open question, is it?

I agree the "tap" is actually the only load on the "feeder" but I don't see anything that prohibits that and it would be possible to add another load later.


I am open to another opinion tho.



Greg Fretwell
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 244
W
wewire2 Offline OP
Member
The rules allow you to tap a feeder conductor only and not a breaker and the definition of a feeder does not include the feed breaker.

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 244
W
wewire2 Offline OP
Member
If you have to go with full sized 3/0 wire, what are the options for termination at the 100 amp disconnect with only
1/0 lugs. Would the UL listing be compromised if you could find lugs bigger lugs that fit? Thanks for the input!

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,669
Likes: 6
G
Member
Read Feeder

Quote
Feeder. All circuit conductors between the service equipment, the source of a separately derived system, or other power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent device.


Greg Fretwell
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,669
Likes: 6
G
Member
If there was any question you could put an inch or two of 3/0 and "tap" that with Polaris connectors but that only points out the silliness of trying to say this is not a legal tap.

Quote
Tap Conductors. As used in this article, a tap conductor is defined as a conductor, other than a service conductor, that has overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors that are protected as described elsewhere in 240.4.


Greg Fretwell
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 244
W
wewire2 Offline OP
Member
Can't do the Polaris thing because it says the tap shall not feed another conductor.

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 244
W
wewire2 Offline OP
Member
I just rethought that scenario. If you call the 3/0 stub of wire from the breaker a feeder and then tap the feeder
with the Polaris and reduce it there I guess that would meet the rules.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Featured:

Tools for Electricians
Tools for Electricians
 

* * * * * * *

2020 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2020 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
Trumpy
Trumpy
SI,New Zealand
Posts: 8,407
Joined: July 2002
Top Posters(30 Days)
dsk 7
andey 1
Popular Topics(Views)
284,956 Are you busy
217,489 Re: Forum
203,777 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5