ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
dsk 13
Admin 8
doc 3
Recent Posts
Bathroom electrical
by doc. 08/19/17 06:53 AM
electircal ageing test on IPC
by SIAME. 08/15/17 02:43 AM
electrical aging test on IPC
by gfretwell. 08/15/17 12:27 AM
"Line level" audio on Cat 5?
by gfretwell. 08/08/17 10:39 PM
Fire alarm phone lines and color coding
by gfretwell. 08/08/17 10:26 PM
New in the Gallery:
Gallery Test
Popular Topics(Views)
240,000 Are you busy
175,606 Re: Forum
167,841 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 60 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#194332 - 05/24/10 09:45 AM Pools  
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
Article 680 allows pool circulation pump receptacles between 6-10 feet. It just has to be a twist lock and 20 amp. Yet you can have a general purpose receptacle between 6-20' as long as it is GFI. Right, so does that mean that you can have a pump motor with a regular straight blade 120 volt plug and cord? (As long as the cord is the proper style and 3' length.)


2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#194333 - 05/24/10 10:07 AM Re: Pools [Re: harold endean]  
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
Here is another question, if you have an above ground pool and the motor receptacle is about 4' from the pool, BUT there is a fence all around the pool attached to the pool itself, would that allow the receptacle to be there because there is a permanent barrier? Would that be as per 680.22(5)? What if the fence has open slats?


#194337 - 05/24/10 02:24 PM Re: Pools [Re: harold endean]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,858
Brick, NJ USA
Harold:
For your opening post above:
IMHO, I believe that ALL AG pool filters are equipped from the mfg with the required 3' cord, proper size, and a male twistlock plug.

I have seen pump motors with 'cord & plug' that was retrofitted with anything from 16Ga to 12ga cord, some 2 wire, with straight blade plugs. (Red Tage)

Keep in mind these are permanent AG pools, not the 'blow-up' type. That's another nightmare.



John

#194338 - 05/24/10 02:29 PM Re: Pools [Re: HotLine1]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,858
Brick, NJ USA
Harold:
Re: second post & question, again IMHO:

A slat fence is not considered a 'effective permanent barrier'.

4' is not 6', so the minimum distance is not compliant.

The fence mounted on the top rail of an AG pool as you describe, may protect the people in the pool, but offers no protection from someone outside the pool in the 4' zone.

The above is MHO, based on my take of your description.



John

#194341 - 05/24/10 03:08 PM Re: Pools [Re: HotLine1]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,103
Estero,Fl,usa
I think the problem is that they did not rewrite 680(A)(1) when they changed the minimum distance in 680(A)(2) and (3) from 10' to 6'.
It really does not make any sense to require the pump to be plugged into a single twist lock if you can have a quad 6-15 on the same post.


Greg Fretwell

#194359 - 05/26/10 09:57 AM Re: Pools [Re: gfretwell]  
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
Greg,


I see your point of view. There is no difference between the twist lock and the straight blade if the recpt. is between 6-15 feet away.

John,

OK all pool motors "should" have a twist lock. However if the cord is correct length and type what does it hurt if the blade is straight or twist lock?

IMHO when you were allowed to have a receptacle closer than 6' and it was for the pool motor, the twist lock made sense, but now since the NEC did away with the closer limit, does it matter?


#194361 - 05/26/10 10:37 AM Re: Pools [Re: harold endean]  
Jim M  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 457
Chestertown, MD, USA
I don't do a lot of pools, but always wondered why the NEC called for a twist-lock, yet the pump was listed with a straight blade. Do you cut the cord to satisfy the NEC and void the listing?

I understand life safety is more important than appearences, but it seems like the pool flexes do not allow the pump to be placed away from the pool IAW the NEC distance requirements. Also why can you have a receptacle just outside the footprint of a tub, but for a pool it needs to be 6'? Both places the body is immersed in water.

I am going to possibly disagree with John about the fence. Without seeing the fence, IMO a slat fence might be an effective barrier. I am seeing a board on board as an effective barrier. Heck I would have trouble fitting my hand through a chainlink fence.


#194364 - 05/26/10 02:11 PM Re: Pools [Re: Jim M]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,103
Estero,Fl,usa
Back before they relaxed the distance rule for the general use receptacles the thought was that if the pump used a twist lock you couldn't plug in a cube tap and a radio along with the pump. They didn't want you sitting in the pool and fooling with an old hot chassis radio.
The problem was they also had language saying if you couldn't maintain 10' to the general use receptacle it could be as close as 5'. Somebody said if this was really a safety issue, why have exceptions? It bounced around the sausage factory and came out in this contradictory form. The panel does not want to fix this

Quote
17-111 Log #2334 NEC-P17 Final Action: Reject
...
Panel Statement: Sanitation equipment receptacles located between 6 ft and
10 ft is a reduction of safety without the additional four requirements.
Receptacles for pool pump motors may be of a higher voltage than 125 V
and therefore may present a higher danger than 125 volt circuits.
The submitter has not provided adequate technical substantiation.


I guess they don't understand it is all 120v to ground.


Greg Fretwell

#194365 - 05/26/10 02:40 PM Re: Pools [Re: gfretwell]  
Jim M  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 457
Chestertown, MD, USA
It is frustrating to see someone present an idea for a change and it is not debated on the merits of the concept. Instead the committee shoot it down due to language issues or lack of adequate substantiation.

Makes you wonder how AFCIs were pushed thru without data to back up those claims.


#194366 - 05/26/10 03:47 PM Re: Pools [Re: Jim M]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,858
Brick, NJ USA
Like I tell people, I didn't write the book, I only enforce it.

That said, there are many things that rub against my grain, but.....



John

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Member Spotlight
Posts: 165
Joined: March 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.016s Queries: 16 (0.004s) Memory: 0.8210 MB (Peak: 1.0030 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-08-20 23:04:39 UTC