ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat Box
Recent Posts
What does your work place look like?
by Lostazhell - 12/01/20 03:44 AM
Where is Everyone?
by gfretwell - 11/30/20 04:12 PM
Happy Thanksgiving
by gfretwell - 11/30/20 04:04 PM
From an outsider- How does tipping work?
by gfretwell - 11/30/20 04:00 PM
Ground fault remover :-)
by dsk - 11/30/20 03:51 AM
New in the Gallery:
Facebook follies, bad wiring
FPE in Germany pt.2
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Scott35), 21 guests, and 17 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Introducing Harmonic Currents #192850 03/06/10 06:13 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 55
U
Up2code Offline OP
Member
Hello all. Hope all is well out there! Supply house is currently bidding fixtures on a lighting upgrade project which will require replacing 333-400W High-Bay Metal Halides(assuming Probe Start) with 333-6 lamp T8 Fluorescent(instant start) High-Bay fixtures. Going from roughly 450W to 224W a fixture. My concern is harmonic currents introduced to factory power system with upgrade. Motors on machines are 480V 3Ph. No specs on number of VFD or what kind if any. Lights are all 277V. Would harmonics increase or decrease in this possible situation? Half of these fixtures burn 24/7. Harmonic currents are not my specialty, by any means, but issue should be addressed before I bid labor on this project.

Tools for Electricians:
Re: Introducing Harmonic Currents [Re: Up2code] #192860 03/07/10 09:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,218
HotLine1 Offline
Member
OK, 72 views and no 'takers' on this one.

IMHO, harmonice are much more involved than can be addressed verbally, plus much more data is required. Are you using the existing lighting circuits/wiring?

Ballast data from the replacement fixtures is required, (THD), as well as any/all data regarding the other loads within the structure. Most, if not all available ballasts (OEM) are within industry minimum-maximum values. Info on the lighting circuits, number of conductors, AWG of hots & neutrals, etc. As you mentioned VFD's and motors, are you concerned about the service? Feeders?

Are you concerned for liability issues? Is there a design professional (engineer or architect) that specified the fixtures? Or, is this just a 'swap out' one-for-one job with energy efficiency the driving force?



John
Re: Introducing Harmonic Currents [Re: HotLine1] #192862 03/07/10 10:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 947
T
twh Offline
Member

Re: Introducing Harmonic Currents [Re: twh] #192864 03/07/10 11:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,546
G
gfretwell Offline
Member
Scott is our engineering guy. I suspect everyone was waiting for him. I would just say upsize the neutral 2 sizes and cross my fingers.
Any time you have 3P wye and any kind of non-linear load you have a likelihood of triplin harmonics.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Introducing Harmonic Currents [Re: gfretwell] #192895 03/09/10 12:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,721
Scott35 Online Happy
Broom Pusher and
Member
Up2code;

If you utilize the same Circuits that were used to run the original 400W MH Fixtures, you should not have any issues from "possible Triplen Harmonic Currents" in the Common Grounded Conductor of 4 Wire Multiwire Circuits.

Since the new Fixtures will draw apx. 40% less Volt-Amps than the original Metal Halide Fixtures, the Circuitry will also be reduced apx. 40% of the original Amperes.

Most - if not all, of the commonly used "Brand-Name" Electronic Ballasts, have a THD of 10% maximum.
That's about the same as an HID's Constant Wattage Autotransformer (CWA), High Reactance-High Power Factor (HX-HPF) or Regulated Lag (Reg. Lag) Ballast.

*** Installation Note - per 4 Wire Multiwire Circuitry & Triplen Harmonics ***

If the L-N Loads are kept to a "Design Limit" of 10 Amps, even with a THD of 33.333%, the absolute maximum Current that could possibly flow on the Common Grounded Conductor of a 4 Wire Circuit would be 30 Amps.

In reality, the Harmonic stories have been grossly exaggerated.

It is true that Harmonic Currents will exist and flow in ANY AC System which drives Reactive Loads.
These Currents "Reflect" back from the load, and "against" the Transformer feeding that load.

Harmonics exist in 2 Wire Circuits and 3 Phase 3 Wire Circuits, where Reactive Loads are driven; however, there is no "Triplen" scenario involved.

Harmonics also exist in Single Phase 3 Wire Systems, where Reactive Loads are driven; however, as with the 2 wire Circuits and the 3 Phase 3 Wire Circuits above, there is no "Triplen" scenario to deal with.

3 Phase 4 Wire Wye Systems have the "Triple-N" (Triplen) scenario, which is the relevant issue of design - and what you're concerns are pertaining towards.

Don (Resqcapt) made a very good statement:
"If the manufacturers of a certain piece of Equipment design it to be extremely noisy (reflect THD >30%), then that manufacturer should be responsible for "cleaning" the AC input outside of the Load's input"

Simply this means that the THD on the Line input of a piece of Equipment should not be higher than 10% at any Harmonic point(s).
Even 10% seems somewhat excessive to me, as there are methods of reducing the Distortion (noise) being reflected back from a given Load, to a level lower than 10%.

If you believe there may be an excessive THD issue, see if you could obtain the listed THD of the Ballast used.

Typical "Electronic" Instant Start Ballasts, for 6 F32T8 Lamps (265ma Lamps), will be listed as <10% THD.
Refer to the Fixture catalog for THD quoted values, or request the THD value(s) from whomever is quoting the Lighting Package.

Good luck with your project.

Feel free to post again if you have further questions, or any information towards the possible THD listed on the proposed new Ballasts.

Scott


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Re: Introducing Harmonic Currents [Re: Scott35] #192982 03/13/10 07:18 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,354
Trumpy Offline
Member
Go for T-5's.
You can hang them like a high-bay fitting and with less harmonics and more light output.

Re: Introducing Harmonic Currents [Re: Trumpy] #193118 03/19/10 08:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,721
Scott35 Online Happy
Broom Pusher and
Member
Up2code;

I have uploaded some drawings, which briefly cover Circuitry of Lighting Systems and the Harmonic Currents + Volt-Amps added to the Fundamental Currents + Volt-Amps.

Refer to the following links to the Technical Reference Section:

THD Examples #1 of 2: F32T8

THD Examples #2 of 2: T5HO

*** NOTE ***
Click on the underlined text above, to view that linked page.

Scott


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Re: Introducing Harmonic Currents [Re: Scott35] #193126 03/19/10 12:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 314
S
sabrown Offline
Member
Scott,

Thanks for the information you posted in the Technical Reference Section. I realize how much time this took and thank you for the effort. I do not see where you can come up with the time.

Thanks again,

Shane

Re: Introducing Harmonic Currents [Re: sabrown] #193161 03/20/10 01:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,721
Scott35 Online Happy
Broom Pusher and
Member
Shane,

Thank you for the positive comments! thanks thumbs cheers

Receiving positive feedback like this makes it all worthwhile.

Scott


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Re: Introducing Harmonic Currents [Re: Scott35] #194257 05/19/10 02:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,273
T
Tesla Offline
Member
I second Trumpy: go with HO T-5...

Siemens developed this along with Phillips...

T-8 is so yesterday.


Tesla

Featured:

2020 National Electrical Code
2020 National Electrical
Code (NEC)

* * * * * * *

2020 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2020 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
Posts: 362
Joined: April 2003
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
Trumpy 17
Popular Topics(Views)
272,170 Are you busy
206,058 Re: Forum
194,072 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3