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Re: ESA's CSS program ? [Re: Eddy Current] #192586 02/18/10 07:14 PM
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frank Offline
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Regardless of the power being on or not the owner of a building can designate competent workers to do electrical work.This is not new and wether i sighted rule or sub rule is just semantics.What are you saying you don't need an electrician the system is energized but you do if it's de-energize?????I don't need to read it again like i said i have dealings with MOL inspectors regularly and it is what it is.Try calling them for an inspection and ask them

Last edited by frank; 02/18/10 07:28 PM.
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Re: ESA's CSS program ? [Re: frank] #192587 02/18/10 07:41 PM
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frank Offline
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Let me put i to you this way a competent worker means other than qualified. Contractors must hold a Certificate of Qualification while employees just have to be competent.Maybe I don't understand your question but it's always been this way.

Last edited by frank; 02/18/10 07:46 PM.
Re: ESA's CSS program ? [Re: frank] #192590 02/18/10 09:28 PM
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Eddy Current Offline OP
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What I'm saying is no one is allowed to do any electrical work other than a qualified electrician. You say a competent worker is allowed but that is not true. No where in the OHSA book does it say that. If all you have to be is competent than why do we even have licensed electricians?

A home owner in Ontario can do their own work if they get a permit but at work, no one but a qualified person can do any electrical.
The fact that ESA overlooks this with their CSS program (so they can make money) is the problem.

Call the MOL and tell them your a competent maintenance worker in a commercial building and ask if you can do electrical work. I know the answer because I've made that call already.

Re: ESA's CSS program ? [Re: Eddy Current] #192591 02/18/10 10:43 PM
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frank Offline
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I have been a 442a since 1999 and a 309a since 2006.And have argued competency as you are now
ESA has absolutely nothing to do with workplace health and safety only the MOL.
I don't need to call for the rational because iv been there and done that.You just wont listen
If only licensed electricians can do electrical work why are competent workers required to have a CPR trained monitor and and electrician does not????.This is the reasoning for the rules i described in an earlier post
In plain English a person or company (CONTRACTOR)who is hired to come into a building must have a C of Q and a person who works for the building owner must only be competent.
We have stationary engineers,matainence mechanics,plumbers and the other trades who troubleshoot up to and including 600v systems in my workplace and the MOL is fine with it.In fact they have inspected our policy and procedure books.
TSSA has done the same with our powerhouse Im the sole operator of a 1500hp plant as i write this and I'm not a licensed engineer im COMPETENT EMPLOYEE.We get SPECIFIC training we sign off on it and blam were good to go.I can't run any other plant in fact its ilegal for me to enter another plant but im in charge of this one while on shift.
It's all about ECONOMICS if your are on shift you do it all and that what it's all about money.I don't agree with it but thats how it is

Last edited by frank; 02/18/10 10:53 PM.
Re: ESA's CSS program ? [Re: frank] #192592 02/18/10 11:24 PM
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Eddy Current Offline OP
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Originally Posted by frank

I don't need to call for the rational because iv been there and done that.You just wont listen

I called today and I was told only a licenced electrician can do electrical work.

If only licensed electricians can do electrical work why are competent workers required to have a CPR trained monitor and and electrician does not????.

??? Electricians have to follow those rules. We can't work live without the extra guy, CPR etc.

We have stationary engineers,matainence mechanics,plumbers and the other trades who troubleshoot up to and including 600v systems in my workplace and the MOL is fine with it.In fact they have inspected our policy and procedure books.

What happens if one of you get hurt while doing electrical? The MOL ok with that too?


Quote
but should someone get hurt or killed under bill C-45 the supervisors,leadhands and anyone who directs work to be done can get life in jail for the death of a worker and ten years for injury.

What are you saying there? Your only allowed to do it until someone gets hurt? Or is it actually legal?

Re: ESA's CSS program ? [Re: Eddy Current] #192595 02/19/10 12:47 AM
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frank Offline
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I don't know what to say but the actual inspectors are allowing it where i work Maybe it is different in your situation but is defenatly allowed here.
The MOL just showed up one day and grilled employees on our policies and procedures then threatened our directors about our asbestos training as we had none as well other discrepancies.
The company then hired MOL consultants to help get everything in order the created an employee health and safety rep for each union and then went through the ACT with them page by page (YES THERE ARE FIRMS THAT DEAL WITH THE MOL FOR YOU)
We were also designated a dangerous workplace meaning the MOL will do spot inspections without warning.

The employees sign a book at the end of the training saying weve been trained and accept the hazards.
That being said anyone who has a problem can get retrained and is never forced to do anything they feel uncomftable with.Some guys wont do work in the MCCs but have no problem with ballast plugs and stuff like that other wont touch anything.
The 600v work that they do is checking power,fusing on air handlers,low limits,fire relays ect.If they cant fix it The electricians get called in or it waits until we come in on regular hours.
Basically its legal until someone gets hurt because we have signed the books and agreed that we are competent
If someone does get hurt hen Bill C-45 takes over and people can lose there lively hood or do serious jail time If the MOL can prove A won ten disregard for personal safety occurred.The idea that this threat will keep DUE DILIGENCE at the fore front of safety.
There have been occurrences where supervisors have gone to jail or have been fined hundreds of thousands of dollars.Either its monetary or criminal but cant be both.
The idea is to go after anyone who directs work to be done not nessasarily the CEO who may not know whats dangerous and whats not.
The Master electricians license is an extent ion of this if your registered with a contracting business you repressible for the employees saftey.Thats one of the ways they get the contractors.You don't have to be an electrician to be a master electrician
We don't require one because we work are regular employees of the building owner and don't leave the premises
That being said i would be careful attracting attention from the MOL WHEN THE DO COME DOWN THEY COME DOWN REALLY HARD.
I was one of the target employees the inspector walked in the building right up to me told me to take him to the boss.Asked the boss to get the our policy book opened it up and said "these pages have never been turned i need to talk to your guy please leave"
We both just about fainted.And thats how it all started.
good luck man

Re: ESA's CSS program ? [Re: frank] #192597 02/19/10 01:19 AM
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Eddy Current Offline OP
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To me it doesn't make sense that it's ok until someone gets hurt, then at that point people can go to jail. Either it's legal or it's not.
I guess because your in an industrial situation it's different.
I also can't beleive your co-workers sign "the book" that says they accept the hazards.

I work for a big electrical contractor that does commercial work, 100 plus employees.
We are not allowed to work live period. Only for trouble shooting and we have to jump through hoops to do it. I know it (working live) happens in our company on a weekly mabey even daily basis, mostly by the older generation who have done it for years.

We deal with the MOL and WSIB often as well. When I called them yesterday I pretended that I was a maintenance worker who was asked by my employer to do electrical work. I also told them that I took a night school course on electrical. They told me I am not allowed to do ANY electrical work and if I got caught myself and my boss would be charged.

Cheers

Last edited by Eddy Current; 02/19/10 01:21 AM.
Re: ESA's CSS program ? [Re: Eddy Current] #192825 03/05/10 03:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
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Navyguy Offline
Member
Not to breathe too much life back into this debate...but I think perhaps both of you are right.

I think the difference being maintenance vs construction.

Frank is totally right, anybody who is deemed Competent can do Maintenance work in a commercial or industrial facility unless specified otherwise in the regulations (mines, marine, etc).

Only people qualified in construction (309 series) can do the other types of electrical work (excluding homeowners).

CSS only applies to maintenance work. I cannot go in and install a new machine in a plant under the CSS, I require a "permit". I can go in and change ballasts under CSS however.

The competent person is how this whole 442 series started in the first place. In the "old days" a 442 in auto could move fairly freely from one auto sector to another and be deemed competent. However that same 442 could not move into the food industry. That has changed in practice, but the regulations that set this up are pretty dated.

Cheers

Last edited by Navyguy; 03/05/10 03:53 AM.
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