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Re: Kitchen island outlets [Re: Rewire] #192475 02/15/10 07:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,235
HotLine1 Offline
I just bought a new toaster & it has the levers that you can 'push-up' to get the toast out. Housing is plastic on sides, metal at top.

BTW, I used to 'eject' the toast by pushing up the lever really fast on the old toaster, until it stopped working!

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Re: Kitchen island outlets [Re: HotLine1] #192480 02/15/10 08:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,507
George Little Offline
Well Greg, There must be a reason why they don't ground toasters. I agree with your train of thought about the path taken for an electrical shock. I agree that all things working properly, the GFCI would prevent one from a lethal shock, but there is one thing we both know " you can protect the fool, but you can't protect the damn fool". Anyone who is stupid enough to stick a metal object into an electrical appliance without unplugging it is a "damn fool". I believe the main reason for not grounding the metal parts of a toaster and many other appliances is because of the realistic possibility of somehow getting into a polarity issue and ending up with a hot metal part setting on the counter next to the sink or other grounded surface. I respect your comments and have always enjoyed the banter your offer.

As a side note you could do what I do when an english muffin don't pop up high enough to grab with my fingers, I flip the lever that John mentioned and the muffin actually flies out of the toaster. smile

George Little
Re: Kitchen island outlets [Re: George Little] #192482 02/15/10 08:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,379
Trumpy Offline
Just get some VDE rated 1000V cutlery.

Problem solved.

{runs and hides}


Re: Kitchen island outlets [Re: Trumpy] #192485 02/15/10 09:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,571
gfretwell Offline
I have never been sure why they don't ground a lot of things. I suspect it started as backward compatibility for homes with 1-15 receptacles and then simply became a cost issue. If they can get away with a two wire zip cord and 1-15 plug, that is what they use. Ungrounded, metal lamps amaze me too.
If I was the king, everything that wasn't double insulated, would be grounded.

Greg Fretwell
Re: Kitchen island outlets [Re: gfretwell] #192488 02/15/10 09:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,379
Trumpy Offline
I have to agree with you here.
I fail to see how a toaster of all things can be designated as "Double Insulated".
Double insulation as it is stated down here, is where "any live parts of the appliance or parts that could become live due to abnormal operation are encased with basic insulation and that insulation is not accessible without use of a tool"
I've never seen a toaster down here that is not earthed, as opposed to double insulated.
I think in this situation the term double insulation is being abused.
That is only my opinion though. smile

Re: Kitchen island outlets [Re: Trumpy] #192492 02/16/10 12:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,571
gfretwell Offline
I agree there is not an easy way to make a double insulated toaster. Most other kitchen appliances seem fairly well insulated but I haven't seen any listed as "double insulated".
That is very common with hand tools tho but they also were the things that usually came with 3 wire cords.

Greg Fretwell
Re: Kitchen island outlets [Re: gfretwell] #192498 02/16/10 10:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 165
Rewire Offline
The toaster we had when I was a kid would shock you every so often so we would unplug it before retreiving the toast.

Re: Kitchen island outlets [Re: Rewire] #192505 02/16/10 01:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,571
gfretwell Offline
Getting back to the original question, I think all kitchen counter top receptacles are GFCI because of the number of hand held appliances you use there. I suppose we could go back to the ROP and see what the thinking was. It really showed up in 93. The 90 code still has the "6' from the sink" language but it does say the intent is to only exempt the fixed in place equipment in a FPN.
I think I still have the 93 ROP spinning on a disk somewhere but I don't see it right now. My hard copy library is packed in boxes because of the renovation.

Greg Fretwell
Re: Kitchen island outlets [Re: gfretwell] #192552 02/17/10 01:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 399
Alan Nadon Offline
Toasters are not grounded because a fault to ground would enrgize the heating element and possibly cause a fire. The fire hazard is considered greater than the elctric shock hazard.
Short cords on kitchen appliances was to reduce the chances of small children pulling on the cord and having the coffee pot or fry pan of hot grease land on them. **The Code change that allows required receptacles on the face of the counters re-introduces this hazard. 210.52(C)(5) exception.
GFI protection of the kitchen receptacles was a combination people (women) washing their hair and/or babies in the sink, and those electric ranges that were three wire without a ground and a high resistance neutral (grounded) connection would make the plumbing in the sink a better ground path.

If it was easy, anyone could do it.
Re: Kitchen island outlets [Re: gfretwell] #192762 03/02/10 02:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,213
SteveFehr Offline
Originally Posted by gfretwell
GFCI protection actually goes beyond the idea of just "water". In the kitchen you are going to be using a lot of hand held appliances which can put the user in the fault path and there is always that pesky fork in the toaster problem.
It goes beyond water, but water is the biggest factor. Wet skin is more conductive than dry skin, thus wet shocks are more severe, and more likely to lead to death. The kitchen isn't the only room with a ground, for instance; every room with a 3-prong grounded appliance has a ground in it and a chance for someone to hurt themselves.

Thus, we need GFCI everywhere there's water, regardless of whether the house has copper of plastic plumbing or whatever else is in the room.

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