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Confused about outside outlet requirements #190491
11/20/09 09:07 PM
11/20/09 09:07 PM
Grover  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 109
Sebago, ME, USA
Customer has added a mother-in-law cottage adjacent to his primary residence. "Cottage" is above a 2 car garage, connected to the primary residence via a fully enclosed "breezeway". Breezeway connects basement of primary residence with 2 car garage, with inside stairs leading up to "cottage".

Front of cottage has a small deck, at upper grade level, and I understand need for external outlet there. Where is "rear" of cottage? Rear is garage level; grade is at front......

I read somewhere that outside outlets can no longer be connected to inside circuits, but can't seem to find a code reference. Anyone know where or if it is true? A dedicated circuit for one outlet on a deck?

Thanks for help!

Grov

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Re: Confused about outside outlet requirements [Re: Grover] #190493
11/21/09 12:36 AM
11/21/09 12:36 AM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,035
Brick, NJ USA
Grover:
I know of no requirement that an exterior receptacle cannot be on an 'inside' circuit, per NEC. There's a thread here that debates that subject, I don't remember if it was relocated into the "Non-US" forum or not.

IMHO, based on your description, there is no 'Rear'. However, you may decide to install a receptacle (GFI) on the rear garage wall to save any possible greif.

Is this structure still considered a single family dwelling, or is it considered a 'duplex', or two family? If it's a SFD, and a rear receptacle was required and installed when it was built, then that one (1) is all you need.


John
Re: Confused about outside outlet requirements [Re: HotLine1] #190496
11/21/09 12:57 AM
11/21/09 12:57 AM
Trumpy  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,250
SI,New Zealand
Grover,
Interesting point.
In my interpretation of "outside receptacle".
(Bear in mind I am from "out of town")

An outside receptacle would need it's own circuit (as in a home run) and be protected by a GFCI, no matter where it was on the outside of the building.

The receptacle will need weather-proofing.

That much might be true, but don't be too hard on me with the replies. grin

Re: Confused about outside outlet requirements [Re: Trumpy] #190499
11/21/09 01:48 AM
11/21/09 01:48 AM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,298
Estero,Fl,usa
In the good old USA the outside receptacles can be on pretty much any circuit except the ones required to be dedicated (Kitchen, bathroom and laundry). You do need a GFCI.
Beyond that it is just a design decision
Commonly these come from basement or garage circuits since they will be GFCI.
I can make a case why dedicated circuits are good design tho


Greg Fretwell
Re: Confused about outside outlet requirements [Re: gfretwell] #190500
11/21/09 03:15 AM
11/21/09 03:15 AM
Trumpy  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,250
SI,New Zealand
Thanks for that Greg,
Am I assuming that "any" circuit could also encompass a lighting circuit as well?
Provided that the new connected load didn't over-load the existing circuit.

I'm here to learn things.

Re: Confused about outside outlet requirements [Re: Trumpy] #190502
11/21/09 03:30 AM
11/21/09 03:30 AM
F
frenchelectrican  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 939
Wi/ Paris France { France for ...
Originally Posted by Trumpy
Thanks for that Greg,
Am I assuming that "any" circuit could also encompass a lighting circuit as well?
Provided that the new connected load didn't over-load the existing circuit.

I'm here to learn things.


Mike the answer is Oui the outdoor recetpale can be on lighting circuit if not hevey loaded but normally it more common sense when upgrading the circuits in resdentail area the outdoor useally be on own circuits due some case I know some peoples go crazy with holidays luminaires or other pretty hevey stuff going on.

It simair to France but couple circuits that can not be used for outdoor recetpale Kitchen , Bathroom { this part is very strict }
and it mantory have RCD with weatherproof fitting on it.

Merci,Marc


Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)

Re: Confused about outside outlet requirements [Re: frenchelectrican] #190503
11/21/09 03:37 AM
11/21/09 03:37 AM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,298
Estero,Fl,usa
The strange thing about US residential circuit sizing is there are no rules. We are really only working with the 3va per square foot calculation and saying the load should be distributed across the general lighting circuits.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Confused about outside outlet requirements [Re: gfretwell] #190505
11/21/09 03:43 AM
11/21/09 03:43 AM
F
frenchelectrican  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 939
Wi/ Paris France { France for ...
Gregg.,

The 3va per square foot that been written in NEC code cycle for super long time I don't really recall when the last time they change that and I have a funny feeling with engery pact they are tighen up the " noose " on genral lighting circuits.

I know in france it is 1.5 to 2 watts per sqfoot { I did converted from sqm to sqfoot } they change that requirement about 10 years ago

Merci,Marc


Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)

Re: Confused about outside outlet requirements [Re: frenchelectrican] #190509
11/21/09 11:49 AM
11/21/09 11:49 AM
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
Getting back to the OP, I believe that we're confusing two different code requirements.

The first would require a receptacle on the deca, if the deck is large enough.

The second - for outside receptacles to the building - applies only to 'grade level.' If one were to be requires on the door-ledd 'blind' side, it would be a requirement for the building in general, and not that particular unit.

IMO, there's no actual requirement that the required 'front' and 'rear' receptacles be on opposite sides of the building; I would allow them to be in the areas where they are likely to be usefull. (I admit that I'm very free in my interpretation here). I accept that it's possible for a particular site, by either design or geography, to make the 'opposite sides' idea absurd.

Nor does it help that -again - the illustration in the NEC handbook is in direct contradiction with its' caption.

Re: Confused about outside outlet requirements [Re: frenchelectrican] #190512
11/21/09 02:09 PM
11/21/09 02:09 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,298
Estero,Fl,usa
Marc, the thing that is inconsistent with a lot of other codes is, the NEC does not limit the number of outlets on a residential general lighting circuit. If the OP wants to tag the circuit on the other side of the wall for his outside receptacle there is really nothing stopping him.

Reno I agree sometimes trying to make a rigid "front and back" rule stick may be silly.


Greg Fretwell
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