ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Shout Box
Recent Posts
Changing a Bulb
by gfretwell. 07/14/18 03:12 PM
Tray cable?
by gfretwell. 07/11/18 10:18 PM
Eaton Heavy Duty 30A and 60A Safety Switches
by Admin. 07/11/18 09:49 PM
ORTOVOX Recalls Avalanche Transceivers
by Admin. 07/11/18 09:44 PM
Tingle off the water spigot
by gfretwell. 07/08/18 12:58 PM
New in the Gallery:
Plug terminals
Housebilding DIY wiring
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (gfretwell), 13 guests, and 12 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Creative wiring, is it truly a code violation? #188979
09/14/09 02:36 AM
09/14/09 02:36 AM
S
sparkyinak  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,334
Alaska
I just got done with a remodel where a big room that had three entries where each had a switch for the room lights (3-4-3-way switch leg). During the remodel, a wall was built so now the big room is a little smaller with only two entries. The original construction was about five years old and to code. One of the 3-ways and the 4-way were removed and kept since they were still good and I planned to reuse the 3-way where the 4-way was. The 3-way some how grew legs and walked away so I went and got a new switch and raised cover. It was not far to get one and i did not have any in my truck (I was surprised too). All said and done, getting the new switch at the store, and cover out of the truck, It is about $150 investment to replace a a good switch. This brings me to my point.

In my travels, I had an epiphiny or what I like to call, an electro-nerd moment. If a four-way was used as a three way, the switch leg would have worked fine. Would the install meet code?

You are electrical inspector. Would you pass it or red tag it? An imaginary electrician used a 4-way as a 3-way because he ran one short on a T@M job. He had a 4-way on in his truck and it is 50 miles to the nearest warehouse. He did not want to add hours to the bill just to get a switch. Please state you reasoning because this imaginary electrician will protest if you red-tag it.

I have several of these electro-nerd moments and some I actually used. If you are intersted, I and you too can post your electro-nerd moments to discuss if you are interested.


"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Re: Creative wiring, is it truly a code violation? [Re: sparkyinak] #188980
09/14/09 03:48 AM
09/14/09 03:48 AM
G
gfretwell  Online Content

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,242
Estero,Fl,usa
I suppose you could make a 110.3(B) violation out of it but I doubt it would get a tag from me.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Creative wiring, is it truly a code violation? [Re: gfretwell] #188988
09/14/09 07:38 PM
09/14/09 07:38 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,985
Brick, NJ USA
Sparky:
If I were there for a 'final', and all the switches did what they were supposed to...I could not tell if I flipped a 3-way, or a 4-way, so it would 'pass'.



John
Re: Creative wiring, is it truly a code violation? [Re: HotLine1] #188994
09/14/09 11:02 PM
09/14/09 11:02 PM
S
sparkyinak  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,334
Alaska
Good point. I did not think of that.


"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa
Re: Creative wiring, is it truly a code violation? [Re: sparkyinak] #189003
09/15/09 08:30 AM
09/15/09 08:30 AM
T
Texas_Ranger  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,426
Vienna, Austria
In Europe actually most manufacturers quit making single pole switches and sell 3-ways for everything (and those that still do have such a negligible price difference that most electricians and retailers only stock 3-ways any more).

Years ago I remember reading somewhere on these forums though, that a 3-way is not UL listed for use as a single pole switch and thus illegal, posing a shock hazard since the unused traveler terminal becomes hot in the "off" position of the switch... on the other hand I assume anyone removing a switch cover should know enough about wiring not to touch any terminals without killing power to the circuit. I guess that's one of the classic "lawyers vs. common sense" cases wink

Re: Creative wiring, is it truly a code violation? [Re: Texas_Ranger] #189008
09/15/09 09:45 AM
09/15/09 09:45 AM
Alan Belson  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,803
Mayenne N. France
It was also pointed out a few years back on ECN that a UK 2-way switch is equivalent to a US 3-way switch. The 2-way and 3-way models are still available in the Legrand range in France. You have to be careful buying them in a brico, as staff and customers have a habit of throwing them into the wrong boxes. You don't find out you bought a two-way by mistake till Sunday afternoon when you discover that the difference is - the factory put nothing in the wiring port but air! Is it just me? Why do I always seem to lose the vital sales ticket for returns! mad


Wood work but can't!
Re: Creative wiring, is it truly a code violation? [Re: Alan Belson] #189058
09/17/09 08:23 PM
09/17/09 08:23 PM
T
Texas_Ranger  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,426
Vienna, Austria
2-way and 3-way (UK nomenclature) of course (every country seems to have a different name for them, the Italians call them deviatore (something like alternating switch I guess) and invertitore (inverting switch), in German we call them Wechselschalter (alternate switch, because the power is directed to either of the traveler terminals depending on the switch position) and Kreuzschalter (cross switch, because they cross out the travelers) and so on) will be sold until some genius decides that they are no longer necessary because of latching relays, but single pole on/off switches are really hard to get by today, at least in Austria and Germany.

Re: Creative wiring, is it truly a code violation? [Re: Texas_Ranger] #189075
09/17/09 11:46 PM
09/17/09 11:46 PM
N
NJwirenut  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 806
Bergen County, NJ
Originally Posted by Texas_Ranger

Years ago I remember reading somewhere on these forums though, that a 3-way is not UL listed for use as a single pole switch and thus illegal, posing a shock hazard since the unused traveler terminal becomes hot in the "off" position of the switch... on the other hand I assume anyone removing a switch cover should know enough about wiring not to touch any terminals without killing power to the circuit. I guess that's one of the classic "lawyers vs. common sense" cases wink


I have also heard that a 3-way cannot be used as a standard switch, but as I heard it the reasoning was that a 3-way isn't marked with the ON and OFF legends on the handle.

Of course, that reasoning falls apart with Decora switches...

Last edited by NJwirenut; 09/17/09 11:47 PM.
Re: Creative wiring, is it truly a code violation? [Re: NJwirenut] #189076
09/18/09 12:33 AM
09/18/09 12:33 AM
G
gfretwell  Online Content

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,242
Estero,Fl,usa
It can't be a "disconnect" without an "off" position but it can control a light.


Greg Fretwell

Featured:

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
Vlado
Vlado
Croatia
Posts: 28
Joined: February 2011
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
Admin 5
Popular Topics(Views)
248,123 Are you busy
185,581 Re: Forum
174,903 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1
(Release build 20180101)
Page Time: 0.034s Queries: 15 (0.006s) Memory: 1.0061 MB (Peak: 1.1778 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-07-19 06:10:30 UTC