ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat Box
Recent Posts
Lock-down Thread
by Bill Addiss - 02/26/21 08:40 PM
Northern Tool Recalls Powerhorse Generators
by Admin - 02/25/21 09:49 PM
You will never guess
by gfretwell - 02/25/21 07:48 PM
New tool
by SMOKEYBOB - 02/15/21 04:59 PM
New in the Gallery:
Facebook follies, bad wiring
FPE in Germany pt.2
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 15 guests, and 18 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
GFI recep. required or not #186473 05/14/09 05:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12
O
Oh Well Offline OP
Member
An apartment owner would like all the old receptacles replaced with Decora. The ones close to the kitchen sink are not GFI recep. If I replace them am I obligated to install a GFI recep. which would mean the original split recep. would now only be a single circuit recep. To bad they don't make a GFI that could be split. Thanks

Tools for Electricians:
Re: GFI recep. required or not [Re: Oh Well] #186477 05/14/09 10:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
L
leland Offline
Member
Yes. What do you mean by "split"?

Your location would really help with the answers.

And Welcome to this forum!

Re: GFI recep. required or not [Re: Oh Well] #186479 05/14/09 10:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 939
F
frenchelectrican Offline
Member
Originally Posted by Oh Well
An apartment owner would like all the old receptacles replaced with Decora. The ones close to the kitchen sink are not GFI recep. If I replace them am I obligated to install a GFI recep. which would mean the original split recep. would now only be a single circuit recep. To bad they don't make a GFI that could be split. Thanks


If this circuit is 20 amp it probly a single circuit however some area do allowed 2X 15 amp circuits. they can split at the receptale however not with GFCI unless you have two GFCI's at first point of split circuit run {two gang box set up }

Please do put the location due we have few Canadians electricians here so once we know your location we can able give you the correct code verison.

Merci,Marc


Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)

Re: GFI recep. required or not [Re: frenchelectrican] #186486 05/15/09 10:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12
O
Oh Well Offline OP
Member
Sorry for the confusion. Details are important aren't they. The existing 15A. split recep with #14 copper wire is within 2 ft. of the sink. If I simply swap it out with a Decora is this acceptable or am I obligated to upgrade to a GFI which leaves the resident with only one circuit until they start making GFIs that can be split. Thanks

Re: GFI recep. required or not [Re: Oh Well] #186487 05/15/09 11:44 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 183
J
jay8 Offline
Member
I would make a call to the local inspector on this since no doubt there are many retrofits coming up lately with the same problem. You run the risk of the 15 amp circuit potentially tripping more frequently or you have GFI protection, my guess is you would end up deleting the extra circuit and installing the GFI.

Let us know what they say if you call the inspection department.

Re: GFI recep. required or not [Re: Oh Well] #186491 05/15/09 12:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 98
B
brsele Offline
Member
Originally Posted by Oh Well
An apartment owner would like all the old receptacles replaced with Decora. The ones close to the kitchen sink are not GFI recep. If I replace them am I obligated to install a GFI recep.

In Ontario you don't have to replace them with GFCI receps., as you are just performing a like for like replacement.
Originally Posted by Oh Well
which would mean the original split recep. would now only be a single circuit recep. To bad they don't make a GFI that could be split. Thanks

My local ESA inspector will allow me to replace a non-GFCI split with a single GFCI.
However, if the property owner will go for it, the best solution would be to put in your split Decora receps. protected by a DP GFCI breaker.

Bruce

Re: GFI recep. required or not [Re: brsele] #186493 05/15/09 01:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 613
M
mikesh Offline
Member
In Victoria We would not require you to upgrade any circuit wired legally and maintained for the purpose for which it was installed.
More simply if they were installed under a previous code that did not required GFCI protection, the wire still is in good condition and all you are doing is replacing the devices you don't even need a permit. A qualified person can change switches, outlets, Speed controls for fans, dimmers and ballasts without a permit.
Caveat if there are ungrounded receptacles you deal with them according to 26-700(8).
You don't have to install arc fault breakers for the bedroom but you may have to install a GFCI outlet in the bathroom if it is an old razor outlet.
If the wiring is aluminum a permit is required if you pig tail and use copper approved devices but no permit if you use aluminum approved devices.
We would not let you reduce the required number of split receptacles by only connecting a single circuit to a GFCI outlet. Since there are no split GFCI receptacles a breaker would be your only choice unless by some miracle the original wiring was 12-3 copper.
If the wiring is old enough that the temperature rating is lower than 90 degree C be careful about changing light fixtures as many new fixtures can only be connected to 90 degree wire. Permit is required to change fixtures.

Re: GFI recep. required or not [Re: mikesh] #186495 05/15/09 01:51 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,155
dougwells Offline
Member
Wow this is confusing i just looked at the Electrical safety regulation and Light fixtures are not included.

When permit is not required for electrical work
18 (1) No permit is required if the only electrical work performed is testing.

(2) An individual may replace the following regulated products without a permit, up to a maximum rating of 150 V to ground, with electrical equipment of a similar type or rating:

(a) receptacles;

(b) cord attachment plugs;

(c) snap switches;

(d) ballasts;

(e) dimmer switches;

(f) fan speed controllers;

(g) thermostats;

(h) overcurrent devices.

(3) An individual may replace, without a permit, a lamp of up to 347 V to ground with a lamp of a similar type or rating.

(4) An individual may replace, without a permit, a fuse of up to 750 V with a fuse of a similar type or rating.

But in the Electrical brochure " A heads Up For Safety" says light fixtures can be changed without a permit up to 150 V to ground.

https://www.bconline.gov.bc.ca/news/BCSA_Heads_Up.html

Re: GFI recipe. required or not [Re: dougwells] #186498 05/15/09 05:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 613
M
mikesh Offline
Member
Hey Doug. Thanks for the heads up on the fixtures from BCSA. I think someone really missed the boat on that. I am seeing more than 1 fail for changing a fixture on K&T wiring with a hot one and having the insulation fail. I think I'll be writing the chief of the province.

Re: GFI recipe. required or not [Re: mikesh] #186565 05/19/09 11:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 402
J
jdevlin Offline
Member
I would be surprised it you would be allowed to use only one of the 15 amps and install GFCI receptacle. More likely you would be required to install a double pole GFCI breaker and maintain the split receptacle or replace like for like and have no GFCI.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Featured:

2020 National Electrical Code
2020 National Electrical
Code (NEC)

* * * * * * *

2020 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2020 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
HCE727
HCE727
Delaware County, PA, USA
Posts: 186
Joined: November 2005
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
Admin 3
Popular Topics(Views)
275,423 Are you busy
209,311 Re: Forum
196,600 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3