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#164392 - 06/02/07 11:13 AM another pond question.  
togol  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 421
NW In. USA
my good friend is reworking his pond(s) and in the process has added two trash pumps to the mix, one is wired 220V and the other is 110v. Both will be hardwired, with one of them pushing water to his new and improved 8' tall waterfall. this new structure is supported by four piers that has added bracing made of all thread. these braces are exposed and have been sprayed with a heavy coating of bedliner. of course he wants me to hook his stuff up, but I am NOT familiar with these things and have told him I thought the rods need to be bonded since they are exposed, but not accessible, unless you are in the pond .

Am I right ? I looked at 682 but the Equipotential stuff has me flummoxed..since there is no easy access to the ponds but one of his streams between the ponds runs along his driveway...

his habit of charging into his pet projects makes me nervous about that 220 pump and the steel and the splashing babbling brook along his drive...



Tom

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#164393 - 06/02/07 11:20 AM Re: another pond question. [Re: togol]  
togol  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 421
NW In. USA
I forgot to add that the 8 braces and concrete are heavily coated with that bedliner stuff , but I don't trust it just the same...maybe I'm too pessimistic?


Tom

#164395 - 06/02/07 12:09 PM Re: another pond question. [Re: togol]  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
It sounds like a trip to City Hall is in order ... to review the "Pool and Spa" code.

All-thread coated with bedliner I would consider similar to epoxy coated rebar; no need to bond.

More important, it's no accident that the NEC mentions 'swimming' along with 'pools.' I don't think they ever intended this section to apply to decorative ponds, water gardens, and similar landscape features. Indeed, the scope of the article seems pretty clearly limited to only those places where a person is likely to immerse themselves (with the possible exception of the bathtub).

A critical feature of Pool regulations is the depth of the pond. Typically, your town will have a depth ... usually 18" or 24" ... where all manner of requirements come into play. As a general guideline, I would suggest that it is at this point that we start applying the code's pool practices.


#164396 - 06/02/07 01:04 PM Re: another pond question. [Re: renosteinke]  
togol  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 421
NW In. USA
......the county will have NO plans for decorative ponds.
the latest inspector here is a retired electrician and his only input will be "to make it safe", which in his mind is installing GFIs ..

was planning on driving a gr. rod near the homerun j-box...... JIC....



I 've beeen thinking about the all thread bracing and I agree with you. I was trying to understand the "datum plane" the NEC mentoned and read to much into it.

my buddy had a bad experience years ago when he tried to pull a dead fish out...seems there was some leakage and the water wouldn't let him go..but he still has a few hard spots in his head in spite of that and gets stubborn when folks try to explain things to him



Tom

#164397 - 06/02/07 01:46 PM Re: another pond question. [Re: togol]  
gfretwell  Offline


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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,121
Estero,Fl,usa
682 is not part of pools and spas. It is a separate article pertaining to artifical or natural bodies of water and in some cases it appears to be more stringent. I am still not exactly sure what the ramifications of the equipotential bonding rules are and it appears, nobody else is either.
682.32 does not seem to exempt metal parts that are insulated. It only says "that may become energized" and that is an inspector call similar to 250.104. It also requires that this be bonded to the grounding bus in the panel, unlike 680.26.
682.33 also seems to require bonding the dirt or slab out to 3' from all associated equipment if it is in a metal enclosure. The disconnect for a pool pump that can sit on an unbonded slab if it is 3' from the water but if this controls a submersible pond pump you need a grounding grid under it.

I am still waiting to see how the scope gets interpreted. It could certainly include a metal bell box serving a cord and plug connected koi pond pump. (needs a 3' grid around the "disconnect")


Greg Fretwell

#164399 - 06/02/07 03:39 PM Re: another pond question. [Re: gfretwell]  
togol  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 421
NW In. USA
Greg,
except for the motorand those braces, everything will be non - metallic, buried, and concealed by plants and more rock.

scraping off that bedliner, getting a good bond and successfully recoating submerged galvanized steel seems like a waste of time, since those connections will fail eventually and are under water anyway.

besides, someone would have to get into the water before they could touch any of them
.
there is no concrete walks, railings, or re-rod within three inches of the water so an equipotential plane and the required bonding would seem unnecessary .

the terrain around the large pond is terraced which makes the three foot rule hard to meet but again there are no metallic parts near these ponds and I will drop a ground rod by the first j-box that feeds the pump, and probably add a couple more rods just to err on the side of caution...



Tom

#164410 - 06/02/07 06:21 PM Re: another pond question. [Re: togol]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,121
Estero,Fl,usa
I guess
you and your AHJ will have to read 682.32 and 682.33 and see what you think it says.
I don't see the word "paved" mentioned in 33 32 says "in contact with the water" so I could see the stricter intrepretation.


Greg Fretwell

#164413 - 06/02/07 06:47 PM Re: another pond question. [Re: gfretwell]  
togol  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 421
NW In. USA
did I mention that this guy will most likely,
not have a clue .?


Tom

#164419 - 06/02/07 10:19 PM Re: another pond question. [Re: togol]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,121
Estero,Fl,usa
The FL IAEI is also tossing this 682 deal around since they suddenly discovered it and are trying to reconcile the language with common sense. I remember in my code change seminar they gave it about 15 seconds while people were gathering up their books and heading for the door. I guess that is the problem with all of these higher numbered articles. Everyone spends their time on the first few chapters and get to 500 and 600 at the end of the day when people don't care anymore.

You can just imagine how much we never hear about 700 and 800. I guess that is why they are generally ignored.


Greg Fretwell

#164421 - 06/02/07 11:27 PM Re: another pond question. [Re: gfretwell]  
togol  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 421
NW In. USA
huh? ....one would think that something like 682 would be used more in the southern climes than up here. and th inspectors would be up to speed


so the end of the book is covered by the beginning ... the way its always been


Tom

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