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#164033 05/23/07 02:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,361
Likes: 1
Cat Servant
I really have to hand it to Norcal for finding these two violations.
(To understand where the problems some into the picture, the panel is decades old - it has not been made for that long - while the building is only three years old.)

First, a view of the panel:

[Linked Image]

A closer look at the label reveals long abandoned artwork:

[Linked Image]

Finally, a look at the breakers suggests our violations:

[Linked Image]

What are the violations?

The panel is fed by 'back feeding' a breaker. While in itself not a bad thing, since 1990 the NEC has required retaining clips for these breakers. (408.36(F)). This panel pre-dates the requirement, and such clips were never made for it.

The other violation is suggested by the filler plate on the third space. This pattern -maintained through the panel - suggests a 'delta' service, with the 'high leg' on the third phase. 408.3(E) requires that this high leg be the middle leg.

Utilities often supply such services with the 'high leg' in the third position, and the metering equipment requires it to be there. After the meter, though, we are required to re-locate that phase to the middle buss.

Last edited by renosteinke; 05/23/07 02:29 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 929
Likes: 1
The 3 pole C/B in the lower right feeds the receptacle in this thread. https://www.electrical-contractor.n...showflat/Number/163887/page/1#Post163887

Should we take bets on the 2 pole breaker being a standard 120/240 volt rating instead of a 240 volt rated as required since 1 pole is on high leg?

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 745
That's definitely an old panel. I am pretty sure that they dropped that ITE logo in the late 1970's. Then, of course when Siemens bought the company, the ITE name and logo went away completely. No doubt if it's in a 3 year old building without a Siemens label, it's reused.


"But the guy at Home Depot said it would work."
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 929
Likes: 1
Gould Inc. bought I-T-E Imperial Corp. in 1976, by the late '70s Gould had their logo on most of the I-T-E line.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,323
Likes: 7
When you guys refer to 'used', do you mean..
Removed from somewhere, and put in a job?
Could it have been 'existing' to remain where it is??


Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,361
Likes: 1
Cat Servant
By "used" I meant that the panel was clearly once part of another installation ... replaced, salvaged, and then put to use again.

Apart from the fact that this panel pre-dates the building it serves by decades, the guy who did the work just happened to have a 'day job' that put him in a position to salvage such things.

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
Originally Posted by renosteinke
Apart from the fact that this panel pre-dates the building it serves by decades,

It seems an inspection should have prevented this.

Where I am the building would still be unoccupied waiting for the electrical corrections to be made.

Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 214
oh come on guys, can you honestley say you've never used a perfectly good 60's-80's salvaged panel? grin


Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,497
To be honest I don't have problems reusing an old panel that is still in good shape and fit for the purpose. However, there are two big issues: in commercial work I would certainly NOT do that for the reason of liability issues. And I probably wouldn't use a panel with breakers of that vintage anyway (fuses would be different).

For example in my own place I just moved the 1977 breaker panel to a new location with a new service and added a 1914 fuse panel as a sub to get more circuits.

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