ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat Box
Recent Posts
Questioning the electrical norms
by gfretwell - 03/03/21 06:05 PM
Lock-down Thread
by gfretwell - 03/03/21 12:38 PM
Northern Tool Recalls Powerhorse Generators
by Admin - 02/25/21 09:49 PM
You will never guess
by gfretwell - 02/25/21 07:48 PM
New in the Gallery:
Facebook follies, bad wiring
FPE in Germany pt.2
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 15 guests, and 17 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Retail Plaza Service Size #163946 05/21/07 09:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 136
C
cgw Offline OP
Member
Any one have examples for what has been used for service size for a speculative retail plaze building?
In KVA per square foot (or amps with voltage). I have a good idea and examples but I would like to compare.
Specifically in this case I am sizing a service for a 15,000 square foot single story strip plaza type building.

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Re: Retail Plaza Service Size [Re: cgw] #163948 05/21/07 09:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member
For a crude estimate, I'd look at an existing similar property .... and if that other place is more than ten years old, double it!

A few other points to consider discussing with the speculator:
- If the place has less than six units, I would still argue for the extra expense of using a buss gutter. This will save lost of money later, when meters are added, etc.
- Make allowances (extra junction boxes, etc) for shifting lighting circuits and switches around. Lay out your lighting patterns so as to accommodate remodels, as walls get moved around.
- Allow in your bid for exhaustive documentation, and identification, of every circuit- to the level of marking every box and device.

Such steps will pay off big time later, when remodels and maintenance are necessary.

I know, there's likely lots of pressure to do as little as possible, to keep the price as low as possible. You need to resist this. I guarantee that every time there's a change of tenant, you will be moving lights, adding receptacles, etc. When a poor (cheap) job is done at the start, the entire property quickly becomes a dog's breakfast ... and each remodel becomes sloppier, and takes longer.

This is why, for such places, I prefer a 'skeleton' of pipe, with MC (or romex, if you must) 'whips' going into the wall cavities.

Re: Retail Plaza Service Size [Re: renosteinke] #163952 05/21/07 01:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 136
C
cgw Offline OP
Member
I am talking about an empty shell. No tenants yet. All we need is the service. These are built all the time.
Does everyone just look at the last similar building they did?

Re: Retail Plaza Service Size [Re: cgw] #163961 05/21/07 04:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 31
J
jdo1942 Offline
Junior Member
This kind of strange. a 15000 sq ft could take a 1000 amps but to sell a single space of 15k sq ft is rare. No one is going to want one service in the plaza. You place a 200 amp service at one end to provide "white box" power and then get with the power company on how you can provide separate power to separate units. The last 15000 sq building we did had 600 amp 3 phase, but this is light for some tenants,

Re: Retail Plaza Service Size [Re: jdo1942] #163962 05/21/07 04:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 348
I
ITO Offline
Member
I have done a few of these; the problem is restaurants, hair salons and over zealous engineers. Simons properties who builds strip centers and malls all over the country allows for 15va per foot, then if the tenant wants more power they can pay to have a service brought in for their space. Locally it’s required to fill the secondary compartment of a pad mounted transformer and bring all the spares to the building for future use, to facilitate any future use or need.

For Shell Space ONLY.
15va x 15,000sf / 830 = 271a or a 400a HV service which is more than they really need and will cover your house panel, lot lights and a few of the over zealous engineers too.

Option (1) I like do a single service for each building with a gutter, house panel, lugs and a tap box for the tenants. Put a lock on the gutter and set up a connection fee for the tenants to keep their booger eating morons they hired to do their electrical work from screwing up your gutter lugs. Generally I charge $350 for final connection and if they bypass me then they own the warranty for the building service.

Option (2) I set the disconnects, meter cans, and install empty conduit up and into the building, and still charge a final connection fee. No meter, no wire, the tenant furnishes the wire and I charge $350 for final termination.

Option (3)
I bring a 100a HV service to each space and set a disconnect, the building owner picks up the expense of the meter and wire, and there is no connection fee.

Option (4)
Same as (3) only I set panels and xformer, and usually some lay-in lights and a few receptacles. The owner picks up the meter and utility fees. There is no connection fee on my part.

Work hard to get the finish out of these spaces; they are the gravy of the project.

Last edited by ITO; 05/21/07 04:37 PM.

101° Rx = + /_\
Re: Retail Plaza Service Size [Re: ITO] #163963 05/21/07 06:47 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 136
C
cgw Offline OP
Member
15VA/SF is pretty low esp. if you expect restaurants (which you have to assume may be a tenant). I would say 25-30VA/sf is pretty conservative. In my case the developer had a similar building that had a 1200A, 480V which is twice as much. The developer wants to be prepared for anything but I think that is but that is pretty high.

Re: Retail Plaza Service Size [Re: cgw] #163966 05/21/07 07:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 136
C
cgw Offline OP
Member
I started looking at specific examples of tenants and 15KVA/sf is not too small. On the other hand the developer did mention a tanning salon in addition to a restaurant. Anyone know what a typical tanning salon uses?

Re: Retail Plaza Service Size [Re: cgw] #163971 05/22/07 12:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 109
L
livetoride Offline
Member
We had to upgrade a service for a tanning salon and I think it went to a 400amp 3 ph and just covered it. Check how many beds they will have plus A/C and heaters. There were alot of heating type loads that added up quickly. Rod

Re: Retail Plaza Service Size [Re: livetoride] #163974 05/22/07 02:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 348
I
ITO Offline
Member
Now wait a minute read the OT.

Note the words:

Quote
“speculative retail plaza building” and “Specifically in this case I am sizing a service for a 15,000 square foot single story strip plaza type building”


Quote
”I am talking about an empty shell. No tenants yet. All we need is the service. These are built all the time.”


Nobody said anything about restaurants or tanning solons, and if you go in guns a blazing “speculate’n” about 25-30va a foot calculations, then you can watch your client shop your number for a better speculation. Start off with 15va for retail space then when they bring a restaurant in work up a price for it, anyone who has ever developed retail space knows that some tenants have bigger electrical needs and they know they aren’t free, and how to make those tenants pay for them.

To answer the question someone here asked the last tanning salon in a retails space I built had a 400A 120/208V 3Ø service.


101° Rx = + /_\
Re: Retail Plaza Service Size [Re: ITO] #163976 05/22/07 02:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 136
C
cgw Offline OP
Member
ITO - The developer (owner) is asking for something like 60W/sf. I am looking for backup to tell him it is too much.
And he (the developer) said that they could get a restaurant, tanning salon etc.

I did a quick geussiment of a tanning salon with 5 beds and came up with right around 200A which means it would probably be a 400A .
How many beds are there in a typical salon?

Even with a tanning salon, restaurant and a small store or two I think the load would still work out to around 20W/sf.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Featured:

2020 National Electrical Code
2020 National Electrical
Code (NEC)

* * * * * * *

2020 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2020 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
Grover
Grover
Sebago, ME, USA
Posts: 109
Joined: January 2005
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
Popular Topics(Views)
275,603 Are you busy
209,527 Re: Forum
196,890 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3