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#130680 - 10/16/06 08:35 PM Phase shift on transformers  
Dnkldorf  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,064
nowhere usa
On the secondary, the phase shift, in realtion to the primary can be shifted by any number of degrees.

But why is this important?

What does the load care, how much shift is done?

I am lost on this, anyone?


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#130681 - 10/16/06 11:21 PM Re: Phase shift on transformers  
JoeTestingEngr  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 785
Chicago, Il.
Power factor aside, it probably doesn't matter. But if you need synchronous sources, it can be a problem. For traction power, we use both delta/delta and delta/wye connections because we want the relative phase shift. This helps fill in the gaps on the outputs of the 6 pulse rectifiers.
Joe


#130682 - 10/18/06 03:43 PM Re: Phase shift on transformers  
Bob  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 182
Mobile, AL, USA
" For traction power, we use both delta/delta and delta/wye connections because we want the relative phase shift. This helps fill in the gaps on the outputs of the 6 pulse rectifiers."

Joe
Please explain this. You can't be using
a dd and dy as a source for the same motor.


#130683 - 10/18/06 06:26 PM Re: Phase shift on transformers  
LarryC  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 783
Winchester, NH, US
Quote
You can't be using a dd and dy as a source for the same motor.


You could if the 6 pulse rectifiers were feeding the DC buss for a VFD.

Larry C


#130684 - 10/18/06 10:19 PM Re: Phase shift on transformers  
JoeTestingEngr  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 785
Chicago, Il.
Bob, we do it 24/7. They are 600VDC traction power compound motors on all the truck assemblies. The 600VDC comes from rectified 480 3PH. When your rectifiers can put out over 10,000 amps each, you can't just slap a capacitor on to filter out the bumps. What you can do is take advantage of the relative phase shift of d/d Vs d/y secondaries. The rectifier outputs feed a common DC bus. The positive peaks are shifted, reducing the ripple amplitude. This along with rail inductance, smooths out the 600VDC supply. Add to this the fact that most rail sections are fed from both ends. Many substations have 3 rectifiers. If one has 2, d/d and 1, d/y, the next will typically have 1, d/d and 2, d/y. As you can probably imagine, there is absolutely no regulation. 600 is just what we call a voltage that usually isn't.
Joe


#130685 - 10/19/06 06:47 AM Re: Phase shift on transformers  
Dnkldorf  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,064
nowhere usa
I've used them for harmonic mitigation, when used in pairs, but couldn't visualize any other applications.

Joe, that is an interesting application using phase shift.

I didn't realize you could do that.

Any other applications where these are used?


#130686 - 10/21/06 12:24 PM Re: Phase shift on transformers  
SteveFehr  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,208
Chesapeake, VA
Theoretically, the phase shift can be any number of degrees. But in practice, it's 30 degrees in a standard delta-wye transformer. (Well, 150 degrees if you want to be technical.) This is rarely desireable, and just a by-product of 3-phase power.

The phase shift creates problems with UPS systems, as the UPSs generally take delta power and output wye power. The maintanance bypass circuit has to phase with this, and match it exactly. So, where the UPS is operating at a different voltage from the building power and input/output transformers are required, it creates a real engineering challenge to ensure everything matches.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 10-21-2006).]


#130687 - 10/21/06 01:05 PM Re: Phase shift on transformers  
PEdoubleNIZZLE  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 176
McKeesport, PA, USA
So, what exactly controls how many degrees of phase shift there are? Does this only occur on 3 phase, or single phase as well?


#130688 - 10/21/06 02:02 PM Re: Phase shift on transformers  
SteveFehr  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,208
Chesapeake, VA
In delta/wye power, there is an inherent phase difference between whether you're measuring line-to-ground or line-to-line. Basically, the peak measured A-to-neutral is going to peak about 30 degrees after A-B peaks, and about 150 degrees after C-A peaks. Usually, this is described as the delta leading 30 degrees behind wye (or that the wye lags the delta by 30 degrees)

It helps to draw a phasor diagram to picture this- if you draw a wye system and then connect the peaks to create the delta vectors, it should make sense pretty quickly.

The problem is when you wire up a transformer delta-wye, as the transformer now ties in the wye to the phase angle of the delta, which bumps the whole thing by 30 degrees.

This only occurs in 3-phase. There's no phase shift in 1-phase.

Edit: had something backwards

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 10-26-2006).]


#130689 - 10/25/06 12:14 PM Re: Phase shift on transformers  
Larry Fine  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 693
Richmond, VA
If I may add a small point to Steve's excellent post (and something it took me a while to grasp):

The difference in time between the line-to-line and line-to-neutral voltage peaks is also why 120 + 120 = 208, and not 240, in 208/120-Y systems. Unlike the hots of a single-phase 240/120 system (180 deg. apart), the opposing peaks are not rising and falling simultaneously (120 deg. apart).

Using any one phase's voltage peak as a reference point, the voltage peak of the previous (or next) phase is already on the way back down (or still rising), so the phase-to-phase voltage is not twice the phase-to-neutral voltage.

Since there are only two points used to measure a voltage difference, it still looks like a symmetrical sine wave, rather than a lop-sided wave similar to a 2-cylinder engine with an uneven firing order. This is the part I used to have trouble with.

Logic seemed to dictate that, with two points peaking 120 and 240 degrees apart, the waveform would be very un-symmetrical. However, electricity doesn't work that way. We instead get a sine wave with an algebraically-derived voltage.

This is why an understanding of mathematics is so important to electrical theory. We may not need to know the math to do the physical work, but, as we see here, it can indeed matter when we have to do our own engineering.

[This message has been edited by Larry Fine (edited 10-25-2006).]


Larry Fine
Fine Electric Co.
fineelectricco.com

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