ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area One For The Law Dept

I am unfamiliar with what a Journeyman is, but I am not sure if it would change my answer anyway. If you know its wrong, regardless of what EE has in his plans, and you do it YOU WILL assume some liability, it may not be the lions share but you will be second in line to pay out. That answer goes for all the owners, a different answer goes for an electrician employee who is told by his boss JUST DO IT- in that scenario the employee will have minimal to no liability, while the boss will assume the larger portion. Actually, to play all the possible situations in my head, if an employee electrician, does the work, knowing or not that the EE messed up, and he continues the job without any input from the boss, the boss will still be liable. In an employer/employee situation, most states employ a theory of Respondeat Superior, which is latin for let the master answer- in other words if an employee is acting in furtherance of his job and there are problems later the employer will assume the liability of his employee's actions. This theory can be applied to any and all actions while on company time, most times that I encounter it is when litigating auto accidents with a company vehicle.

[This message has been edited by RMIESQ (edited 06-15-2002).]

Rob,
Beautiful answer, I did forget my Latin

The answer is in line with most states in that you can't be an electrical contractor without a MASTER. The master is, in theory, the technical head of the enterprise.

A journeyman is someone who has shown skill and knowledge of the trade sufficient to work with no direct supervision on a daily basis, but must take direction from the master, it's an OLD system, and pretty much works well.

The apprentice is just learning the trade, and must take constant supervision from a journeyman. Most states have quotas, in VA you must have no more than 3 apprentices to each journeyman. The IBEW has a 1:1 ratio, etc..

Thanks for taking the time on this one.

George,

Since you know a bit of Latin; I guess the best advise for all is "cogita ante salis et consilio et prudentia" - interpretation - Think before you leap and by wisdom and prudence you shall prevail.

(that may not be grammatically correct, sorry)

[This message has been edited by RMIESQ (edited 06-16-2002).]

Well I already like the "employee electrician" answer because that would be me.

[This message has been edited by frank (edited 06-16-2002).]

[This message has been edited by frank (edited 06-16-2002).]

Hmmm... I said the other day to my partner that the unlicensed have more than just the lack of NEC to curb their "creativity" to their advantage, their liability concerns are next to nothing, aren't they, technically?

I probably made the situation here sound more simplistic than it really is. I was thinking of a case that appeared a few years ago in which a workman (I hesitate to use the term electrician) wired a remodeled kitchen.

Don't ask me how on earth he managed it, but he somehow left exposed metalwork hot instead of grounded. Twice the owners called him back, reporting that they were getting mild shocks when they touched it, and twice he "tested" it and said that nothing was wrong. Then someone came in with bare/wet feet or whatever and was killed. He was charged with manslaughter.

But I think that's a rare case of somebody being brought to book. With no permits etc. and and virtually no paper trail (at least in most residential work), I'd bet that in many cases by the time any sort of accident happens nobody has any idea who was responsible for the work. Just another statistic chalked up to "electrical fault."

I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure that in the case of an apprentice working under direction from somebody who is supposedly knowledgable, that a large proportion of the responsibility would be aimed squarely at the person in charge, unless it was something so simple that even a greenhorn apprentice should have realized that what he was doing was dangerous.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 06-16-2002).]

Paul,
the 'workman' scenario is 1/2 my biz here. i'd drop a dime on these clowns if only the state would back me up....

Sparky
That is the whole problem is getting someone to back you up. Especially the state or in my case the county or even the city. We have illegals working everywhere doint "Their thing" taking jobs by under bidding them to the point where we legal contractors would not touch them, but if reported NOTHING is ever done about it.
Here for example, the homeowner can pull the permit, and its the biggest joke, an older lady in her 80s pulls a permit to do a 200 amp service and no one questions her as to the validity of her claim.
Recently our state went through a state licensing program where if you were previously State Certified you were automatically Licensed, However; They had a grandfather clause involved that if you could show training in the electrical field they could get there contractors' license, now we have Plumbers, pipefitters and HVACs licensed as Electrical Contractors, but one consulation is maybe now the plumber wont put the hot water heater so close to the Service panel.
-Mark-

yeah Mark, bad news....

We need HV & George to make the rounds....

then watch all the rats jump ship....

Where to start, oh where to start.

Pualuk- As I said above, the apprentice and the licensed electrical employee can work free of concern of negligence liability. The employer overseeing the work (or not even on the job site) will eat any damages that result as a result of work he billed on.

Sparky- Bare with me guys, I am still not sure what State is everyone from. Many States don't take the approach I would like to see against unlicensed workers doing electrical jobs. In NY a homeowner can do their own electrical work, but someone for hire must be licensed. More often than not a contractor will come in to remodel a bath/kitchen and will say that an electrician is not needed, and in an effort to save the homeowner money he tells the homeowner to apply for what ever permits may be needed and the contractor does the work. Say some time down the line a box isn't grounded and the same scenario as above (barefoot and wet) results in death- who is liable. The homeowner, when filing for the permits indicated that he was doing the work, Here the contractor is getting away with murder. The best advice is join your local Electrical Associations, Here in NY I am the attorney for the Suffolk County Electrical Contractors Association (SCECA) There is Strength in numbers, Associations such as SCECA can lobby to have local politicians put programs in place to fine/jail unlicensed electricians.