ECN Forum Forums Photo Discussion Forums Violation Photo Forum Will the AHJ accept this installation?

The Type SE grounded service entrance conductor, grounding electrode conductor and all of the equipment grounding conductors are secured to this split bolt.

The MBJ is also installed as required.

The home is still being built in the Albany, NY area and this equipment was not inspected yet?

Do you think that the AHJ will accept this concept?

The work was done by an electrician

With the exception of the EGCs, this would seem to be "ugly but legal", as far as I can see. The split bolt does appear to be the required Cu/Al type, but AFAIK, split bolts are only rated for 2 conductors.

If the EGCs are moved to the neutral/ground bar where they belong, then it might have a chance of passing.

Was there no large hole available on the neutral bar to take the GEC? And it looks like the installer used his teeth to strip the GEC, as well...

[This message has been edited by NJwirenut (edited 05-05-2005).]

[This message has been edited by NJwirenut (edited 05-05-2005).]

Here's a full view of this job.

Too rough looking, but might pass.

I think the gutter for the Romex was a good concept, but question the huge wad of wire passing thru the chase nipple (if there is one). Not as far as derating, but just to trace/locate a circuit or its breaker.

And notice all the tripped breakers? Lots of red showing!

(edited for spelling)

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 05-05-2005).]

No matter how you look at it, this is a "Sub Panel" and needs to have a Ground Bus insatlled. The MBJ will be at the Main where it belongs.

Rob

I don't see why this is a sub-panel. Anyway, I see it as a violation of 250.64(C) Continuous.

Dave

Will the AHJ pass this? Who knows they very well might, there are many inspected services that use a split bolt connector in this manner.

I think the question is Should they pass this?

IMO no, the AHJ should not pass this.

Now this does not appear to me to be a sub panel.

I also do not see this as a violation of 250.64(C).

The GEC may be connected anywhere from the weatherhead to the panel.


What I do see is a 110.3(B) issue as NJwirenut was pointing out.

That split bolt connector is only listed for two conductors not a 'dozen or so'

That 'green' is not insulation, it is green tape covering all the individual EGCs for the branch circuits.

My bet is Joe is also looking for 408.20.


Bob

408.20 ... Bingo!

Also, this was the main service panel, see the MBJ "Green Screw" upper right.

MX...I hope the breakers are "tripped." That's how they come from the factory. (As a quality control measure, the breakers pass through a magnetic field that trips a good breaker. Those that don't trip are trashed. This is done as one of the last steps before packaging.)

renosteinke:

Thanks for the info!! I had always wondered why they arrived tripped from the factory. I had thought it meant they were mishandled in shipping...

This whole install would have been much nicer if a ground bar was put in the wire trough and then brought back to the main panel. Then the split bolt would not have been needed using one big #6 ground back into the panel. And then the 'neutrals' could have been on one side the 'grounds' on the other. Then we can either put in the green screw or remove it if it's a subpanel. Right?

It took me several minutes of reading and looking at this thread before I realized that that green tape and all those grounds were coming from that wire trough.

Shame Shame. It's like they almost knew what they were doing until they had all those bare copper wires to deal with.

Is it safe? Yes I think in a fault condition it would perform. Ultimately that's the test. For the most part it's a nice clean installation.

It's almost like the installer ran out of parts and just shoved in that split bolt to go fishing early.

RSlater,
RSmike

I am not familiar with the subtelties of the NEC, but a question. Does the NEC not say something about "one conductor per terminal" with regards to neutrals and EGCs for branch circuits? And if so, would that not apply to all the individual EGCs under one splitbolt? Or does that just apply to the Grounded conductors and I am way off base?

Well to start I thought the split bolt is for 2 conductors only not 32.

I don't understand why the #6 Cu is in the split bolt because it ends up in the lug next to the nutral.

They should have used a lug adapter on the ground bar and added a g bar if needed. Probibly costs less than the big split bolt. I never see the 00? looped like that.

I could not say if it's a violation with out looking but it would seem like your bonding the nutral in 2 places in the same panel.

They tried to make it neat by tieing all the cunductors together even if it is bad.

I also see the 2 nutrals under 1 screw.

I don't see the piont in the gutter but like I said we don't see NM.

Having about 60-90 conductors going thru 1 nipple is a dumb design.

I also thought that was a green wire. Now I see it's all the grounds taped together.

What a joke.

How many conductors in cross-section in that gutter? Looks like at least 85 to me.

I dont't think 408.20 (408.40 in '05)has been violated here. There are terminal bars installed they just have not been used. When used as service equipment the unused terminals in the "neutral bars" (my term) can be used to terminate equipment grounding conductors. No need to install addtional "ground bars" unless you run out of terminals. I think the splitbolt is a violation and I suspect that the trough is over filled. Basically a hack job.

[This message has been edited by Electricmanscott (edited 05-15-2005).]

I'm curious, Joe, did you get a chance to visit with this guy? Was he having a really really bad day?

Why the gutter?

No contact was made with the installers. One of my students took me to this site during lunch while I was in Albany. He said he would let me know if the job was signed off. The wireway is unusual, and maybe because the installers are use to working in areas around a shop.

The fill rules are different than they are in Chapter 9, Table 1, though.

Someone mentioned using a ground bar in the trough which I believe would have made a neater install. I've seen it done many times. My question if it was done, how would size condutor from ground bar back to panel bus?

Do the coiled feeders at top create an additional magnetic "choke effect"?

As Joe suggested in his last post, it sure looks like this is the first residential job done by a commercial electrician. Note the number tags on the blacks.

"Where's the conduit and troughs?"

"Why are there bare wires?"

There was no reason to keep the EGC's off the neutral buses since the service cable's neutral goes exactly there anyway. At least they installed the enclosure bonding screw.

I can't see what kind of knockout the utility outlet is run through but I'd suspect it really should have its own ground.

What is the point to a gutter box for NM? I've never seen this before, and how are the conductors ran? Is it just a gutter box with NM clamps on top with all conductors running through a chase nipple and terminating at the panel (from what I can see)? Seems clean, especially if you have a decent sized panel with lots of circuits.

richard said:


Nope, they're what I call "burn loops" in other words, an extra length of wire in case a lug burns out, so you don't (might not) have to replace the feeder.

And in some cases, making a loop makes it easier to get the conductor into the lug as well.

Thanks for that info. I had always done that for that reason, but an electrician had told me that it was better to bring them straight in. It is nice to hear that there is nothing wrong with that.

Since we are on the subject of coiled wires, what is the purpose of the factory coil of the neutral of a gfi breaker?

Sorry, I hit the send button too fast. If you didn't install it coiled (the neutral), would it be a violation?

From what I see, the gutter frees space on the board for comms gear.

I'll never understand why people make that loop in the feeder before tightening it to the lugs. I never do that. Even on a 200 amp MB Panel there's really no need to do it, copper or aluminum.

As far as the gutter is concerned, I don't like the big ole chase nipple that I hope was used. I really see no reason why that splice box was needed to begin with.

shockme77:


Like most things on installs, some people swear by 'em, some people swear at them!

What does AHJ stand for and what is the job of the AHJ?

AHJ is "Authority Having Jurisdiction", which is the inspector or building official.

steve

AHJ= Authority Having Jurisdiction.

If this was a commercial electrician's job, he is no doubt violating the Code with his gutter installations everywhere he goes.
If there are more than 30 current carrying conductors in any cross-section of a metallic gutter or wireway, they must be derated per ('02) 310.15(B)(2)(a).
See 366.7(A) and 376.22


Sure, it probably passed