ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Potseal 11
Recent Posts
Why cables look like they do
by LongRunner. 04/26/17 09:36 AM
Dimmable LED 2x4 lay in fixtures
by HotLine1. 04/24/17 05:43 PM
Old decora style outlets
by Lostazhell. 04/22/17 07:59 PM
Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in
by gfretwell. 04/22/17 01:11 PM
How do you find a good employee?
by HotLine1. 04/22/17 10:44 AM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
234,735 Are you busy
169,494 Re: Forum
162,784 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 78 guests, and 11 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#59826 - 12/15/05 07:59 PM CA Certification- Update  
electure  Offline


Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,259
Fullerton, CA USA
The California Apprenticeship Council, at the Dec. 8, 2005 special meeting, affirmed the deadline for general electrician, residential electrician, fire/life safety and monolingual Spanish speaking candidates remains at January 1, 2006.

Anyone employing non certified workers after the end of the year will be in violation of the law.


Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#59827 - 12/15/05 09:02 PM Re: CA Certification- Update  
e57  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
They have any other (You know) DETAILS?!

Oh, just looked at their site....
Quote
You will have until June 1, 2006 to take and pass the exam. You do not have to submit any additional forms if you have already submitted an application and are waiting for a test date or eligibility determination.

Sounds like a 6 month extention to me! (For those who get the paper work in the mail...) FISHY!


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason

#59828 - 12/15/05 09:07 PM Re: CA Certification- Update  
e57  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
Oh, Scott, The only penalty seems to be on the employee in violation of the requirement to be certified. Banned from taking the test for five years.... I have not seen or heard of any penalty againt the employer as of yet. Unless you know differently?


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason

#59829 - 12/15/05 09:17 PM Re: CA Certification- Update  
electure  Offline


Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,259
Fullerton, CA USA
Maybe I spoke too soon!
(After all, they didn't say the deadline for WHAT)
Maybe they meant the deadline for deciding whether one was going to begin thinking about possibly complying with the law maybe if he/she felt like it sometime soon if it's convenient.
Mark, I don't know anything more. I had forgotten that here in California, most laws are actually not enforced [Linked Image]




[This message has been edited by electure (edited 12-15-2005).]


#59830 - 12/18/05 12:48 AM Re: CA Certification- Update  
frankg  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11
You can fight it and disagree but as of Jan 1st I will be reqesting a certification card for anyone touching a fire alarm panel and field wiring. I would suggest carrying a copy of an application dated before Jan 1st.

Before criticizing the program I think you need to consider the issues. I have raised many questions to the DAS regarding the certifications. Their reply has been, many people have asked this question and "we don't have an answer, We'll let you know when we do".

My question was, how can a general electrician work on fire/life safety systems without any reference to NFPA 72 "national fire alarm code" on their test?

I work with a lot of very qualified and professional electricians but when it comes to fire alarms they admit they don't know what they are doing!

Many states require NICET certification to even touch a fire alarm system.


#59831 - 12/18/05 02:34 AM Re: CA Certification- Update  
Trumpy  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,211
SI,New Zealand
frankg,
Quote
My question was, how can a general electrician work on fire/life safety systems without any reference to NFPA 72 "national fire alarm code" on their test?

Could you please define the term "General Electrician"?.
I know a lot of Electricians that have moved over to Fire Alarm systems after having served thier time as Electricians.
And the majority are very good at what they do, I'm basing this on technical(practical) knowledge, not theoretical or legislative knowledge.

I would like to add though, that this thread is not a "one hit wonder" here, Electure has been on this subject since it came out 2 years ago (Scott?) I think, no-one here want's to see anyone unfairly de-licensed, but, if you sit on your backside, my friend, that's what you'll get.
Everyone has had fair warning, if you are at risk of being struck off at the moment, shame on you!.
Those that heeded the call when Electure first posted the warning, good on ya!.

{Message edited for spelling errors}




[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 12-18-2005).]


Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

#59832 - 12/18/05 09:13 AM Re: CA Certification- Update  
electure  Offline


Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,259
Fullerton, CA USA
This thing has been in the making since the bill was introduced in February 1999
The members that you've seen here with our criticisms have been following this thing for a long time, and have (i think) earned our right to criticise,
  • Mark (e57) has had a website for years dedicated exclusively to this issue, and has done extensive research, including attending meetings of the CAC.
  • Larry (Sandsnow) as well as being a much respected inspector is an instructor that has been preparing students for this test at one of the accredited schools. (His wife is also heavily involved in the educational process)
  • I was as far as I know, the first non-union electrician in the State to be certified (in early 2003), and have followed this thing the best I could since its inception 4 years before that

We long ago quit "fighting it"

The way it works is:

The paperwork for journeyman applicants must be sent in by Dec 30, 2005. They will have until June 1, 2006 to take and pass the exam.
In the interim, they will be allowed to continue to work. If they don't take and pass the exam by 6-1-2006, they will need to submit the Trainee Registration form and enroll in an approved Trainee program.

Trainees have the same deadline of Dec 30, 2005 to submit their paperwork. They must be enrolled in a State approved school by 7-2-2006 if they live within 70 miles of a school. If they are beyond the 70 mi radius, they are still required to submit paperwork by 12-30-05.

The deadline for data techs has been extended until 2007

Contractors will be expected to lay off or fire non compliant employees. Those employees will not be able to legally work.

Contractors in violation may be barred from employing uncertified individuals (trainees/apprentices) in the future. There are no "fines" specified at this time.

Enforcement will be handled at the local level (GCs, Workmen's Comp, etc.)

The most important thing is to get that paperwork and the fees in by the deadline

General Electrician is the classification for employees of Electrical Contractors other than Residential Electricians, Fire Life Safety Electricians, or Data Techs.
GEs will not be limited to the restrictions that have been placed on the other classifications.


As to the way it's been handled, here's a typical example:
The California Apprenticeship Council did not know that there was a problem with the testing facilities' contract, and as of now, there will be no testing available as of Jan 1 until it's resolved.
Right on top of it, they are [Linked Image]




[This message has been edited by electure (edited 12-18-2005).]


#59833 - 12/18/05 04:37 PM Re: CA Certification- Update  
e57  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
I think this sums up my additude about it.... (After many ranting letters and phone calls)
[Linked Image]
(Not linked from my overtly political site... Moderators here get upset if I link anything here to it. And have agreed not to.)

I went to a few public meetings as a fly on the wall early on, and my general opinion of the DAS was formed then. And I cant even think of how to strip the politics off of that opinion... So, ahhhh....

From the very inception of this law it has been steeped in politics, still is, and I think right after the New Year, it will be more than ever. (There are several suits on right now, and I expect there will be many more in the next year.) IMO the controvery will continue until everyone is appeased in some way. So far this topic hasn't really hit home in the real world of the bussiness end as of yet. And who knows what will happen there.

The law itself may be changed in legilation? Who knows?
AB 537

frankg, I actually did not take the FLST test because I HATE working on Fire Alarms. Ones that are properly engineered aren't that bad, but are few and far between. IMO they should be worked on by only qualified personel, who specialize in them. And, I have it from the rumor mill, (Meaning I called the DAS and asked a question, a good source for bad information.) that although the General classification generaly covers all in the NEC, it was intended that the FLST classification was seperate on it's own. Which is why you can apply for both.... (If you look closely at the list of persons with an F at the end, you'll notice many have both an F, and a G for the same person, as it was interpited as being seperate for a while.) In the future I expect there to be some clarification on this. But in the mean time, many are seeing the General Classification as all encompassing, and it may even stay that way. The vaguaries of the language of this law are interpted many different ways, and the interpitations have a tendancy to change. In one of the proposals for changes in this law, you'll also note that NICET training was added to be an experiance qualifier for the FLST classification, but still shows the words "any electrical system" in the General classification.

For instance Scott and I were in the chat room the other day, talking about how we have both read this law up and down a few hundred times over the years it has been out, and not have the language of the law pretaining to BARRING employers from employing appretices if found to having un-certified employees stick out at us. Although it has been there for a few years, since AB1087. It's now only coming to light that that is how it is being interpited as....

Trumpy, there are still many that are still completely in the dark as to what is going on... I put up flyers, and often leave cards with a link to my site at supply houses, and on trucks in SF. And in my travels around town I often talk directly to people about this law. Even, called companies out of the phone book... Many small mom and pop type shops have no idea. Even mid-sized shops have heard about it, but did not know it was going though in a few weeks. Recently I was looking to, and did change jobs. I interviewed with a few companies that did not know... Scott has mentioned that there are ads for electricians with 2 years experiance in his area, and I have noticed the same here in my area. So, I feel this is going to be a shock to many small shops, that just go about thier daily biz, and aren't members of industry associations, or keen enough to keep thier ear to the ground. Or, seeing posts like this here on ECN and Mike Holts site.

Who knows, the DAS may even collapse under its own weight January 2, 2006 [Linked Image]


[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 12-18-2005).]


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason

#59834 - 12/20/05 08:30 AM Re: CA Certification- Update  
Trumpy  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,211
SI,New Zealand
Great work folks,
Nice to see someone doing something for the trade rather than knocking it down.
If you want to be a part of us this time next year and in CA, get your paperwork together and get with the program.


Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

#59835 - 12/20/05 08:11 PM Re: CA Certification- Update  
sandsnow  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 167
Irvine, CA, USA
I hate to sound too negative here because I really believe in the continuing education part of the program.

That being said, I'll give you a little history some of you may know.
AB717 was signed by the govenor on Oct. 4, 1995. It requires bldg inspectors and plan reviewers to be certified by a recognized entity (IAEI or ICC)and complete 45 hours of continuing education every three years.
No one from the state has ever asked me if I've got my hours in. Even my employer has not asked me.

Have you the contractor or electrician noticed an improvement in the knoweldge of inspectors or plan checkers in the last 10 years??? Still find inspectors who have no clue??? Enough said.

I have to grudgingly admit about that my dream of the program creating more knowledgeable electricians is probably going to remain a dream.


Larry LeVoir
Inspector
City of Irvine, CA

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Member Spotlight
Samurai
Samurai
Fl.
Posts: 46
Joined: May 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.021s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.8280 MB (Peak: 1.0039 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-04-26 17:33:41 UTC