ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Potseal 11
sparky 5
Recent Posts
Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in
by sparky. 04/29/17 05:59 PM
201 volt equipment?
by bigpapa. 04/29/17 12:15 AM
Schneider LC1D09
by jraef. 04/28/17 11:05 PM
Electrode boilers question
by annemarie1. 04/27/17 01:40 PM
Why cables look like they do
by LongRunner. 04/26/17 09:36 AM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
235,015 Are you busy
169,862 Re: Forum
163,052 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 68 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#10063 - 05/28/02 08:50 PM show windows  
Cindy  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 196
PDX, OR, US
who decides when a window is a show window?
a small bank downtown is moving into an old store with large show windows that currently doesn't have show window receptacles, but they don't expect to put electric signs in those windows, so do they need to have show window receptacles above them? they will obviously put some kind of advertising in them, like interest rates or cd rates or something, but what is the intent? like what if this was going to be an office or a hair salon? everybody downtown advertises something in their large windows with street frontage


Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#10064 - 05/28/02 09:16 PM Re: show windows  
Joe Tedesco  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Boston, Massachusetts USA
2002 NEC Definition and NECH commentary:

Show Window. Any window used or designed to be used for the display of goods or advertising material, whether it is fully or partly enclosed or entirely open at the rear and whether or not it has a platform raised higher than the street floor level.

See 220.3(B)(7), 220.12(A), and Exhibit 220.1 for show-window lighting load requirements.


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

#10065 - 05/28/02 11:13 PM Re: show windows  
Cindy  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 196
PDX, OR, US
since we never really know how they will be used when finished, guess we just have to make some assumptions huh?
i assume there will be advertising done in them, but don't really know what they intended when they wrote this requirement.
i wish it specified retail vs. office spaces or banks or barbers or other businesses. it would be nice if they stated the intent. oh well...........


#10066 - 05/31/02 02:09 AM Re: show windows  
Scott35  Offline

Broom Pusher and
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,707
Anaheim, CA. USA
Cindy,

This comes up here and there - both by fellow trades persons and by Inspectors.
It's sometimes a no-win situation [Linked Image]

I work primarilly on Bank Branches - and these projects are typically T.I.'s [Tenant Improvements] within "Stand Alone" Buildings and within Storefronts [like Stripmalls]. Many of these T.I.'s are done within Buildings which were designed to cater almost any Tenant, so they contain large window sections at the front door area[s].

Of the possible 400+ Branches I have worked on [from small installs to full T.I.'s and new Buildings], none have utilized the window space as what would be defined as "Show Window".
I would say the best way to classify this is that the Bank does not feel the Security Risk of displaying Cash, Bonds and Mortgages within a Show Window is really worth the Advertisement Value [Linked Image]

The City Accepted Plansets [Plancheck approved] have never shown any Show Window outlets, because there isn't any need for them. These windows are more of a nuiscance than anything else!
The windows normally get the typical "Bulletguard" film and tinting on the outsides, then Vertical Blinds are installed inside.

I have gone over this one many times. Some feel that since the windows exist, they require show window outlets [which may be correct afterall???]. I explain that they [the bank people] do not intend to use them for any LIGHTED ADVERTISEMENTS, as they become a maintenance nightmare and tend to draw attention to somewhat unsecure areas.
They do hang plexiglass encased marketing items, but they are not lighted.

Another argument has been aimed towards future tenants. Have heard that since we do not know what the future tenant will be, we must install the show window receptacles.
To this I have a somewhat "Generic" reply [generic as in simple and always the same]:

"We are Building a Bank for this current Tenant. What happens when the lease runs out and a new Tenant moves in? Will they need to remodel / T.I. to suit their needs?"
Of course they will! They will need to do at least some minor Electrical work.

Only certain Tenants will need show window lighting, and no one knows who is going to lease the building [or suite] next.

The next tenant could be a Sandwich shop, which would want show window lighting, or could be a high production Widget Manufacturing plant which does not want show window lighting, or could be the Logistics plant for the storage and distribution of the Widgets [also not wanting show window lighting].

These examples also follow with the minimum service sizing arguments, plus the subpanels sizing and outlet placement / sizing arguments which come up over and over again in the field.

Scott S.E.T.


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

#10067 - 05/31/02 07:58 PM Re: show windows  
Cindy  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 196
PDX, OR, US
thanks scott, your insights were very helpful



Member Spotlight
sbi
sbi
indiana
Posts: 47
Joined: March 2008
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.011s Queries: 14 (0.003s) Memory: 0.7706 MB (Peak: 0.9088 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-04-30 14:52:52 UTC