A trivial question with perhaps an obvious answer to you guys, but as you now know we don't generally use wirenuts over here.

Do you find it better to just put the wires loosely together and then let the wirenut pull them tight, or do you prefer to twist the wires firmly together with pliers first?

How about stranded conductors, or joining solid to stranded? Same method, or different technique?

pauluk,

Go here for a past thread on this...

I didn't want to rant all over again!



I think I'll take some pictures this time!

Hold on...

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 08-27-2001).]

Pauluk,

You probably are unaware of it, but,you are on the verge of starting an international incident. Just dont ask about push-in vs. screw terminals on devices.

TWIST THEM!



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 08-27-2001).]

IMHO - Twist Them, then cut the ends even

'66,

I forgot about you not pre-twisting and just realized why you recommend using pliers on the wirenuts (on the other thread )

I don't think that your method would very easy to do on #10 solids and mixtures with smaller sizes. I'd worry about smaller wires not 'catching' What do the instructions say about twisting?

Bill

HEE HEE!
You know, I was going to ask you guys this very question a few weeks back, but after my side/backwire question, I figured I'd let someone else...

Very informative, as usual, everybody-
Thank you.

Hmm, sorry to be so controversial!

I looked back at some old threads and saw the discussion about push-in vs. screw terminations on receptacles, but not the twist or no-twist wire nuts. Thanks for the recap.

At risk of another international incident, I have to say that I don't much like the idea of push-in terminations, maybe because I grew up without such things here.

First time I even realized these existed was about 14 years ago. I'd not been to the U.S.A. at that time and studied your wiring in detail, but I'd ordered a lot of computer equipment from California, and rigged up a transformer to run everything on 120V. I ordered a U.S. 6-way power strip which consisted of 3 duplex 5-15 recepts. and when I looked inside it I found that these used push-in wiring.

I'm not quite sure exactly what you mean by side-wired and back-wired. Every American receptacle I've ever seen has the screw terminals on the side. Does back-wire mean the push-in type of termination?

Hmm, sorry to be so controversial!

to be honest, we seem to go the ditance with controversial topics, fire away Paul!

I'll even throw more fat on the fire by saying that all wirenuts are not IMHO created equal...and matters as applied to preference.

& yes, 'backwired' or 'backstabbed' means the same, the wire being pushed into a slot in the back of the device.
Note that the NRTL's have made this a listing violation for #12 wire, but not #14.

So if I were to wire a home with #14 the NRTL's apparently consider this perfectly safe & compliant.

Ideal Wire Nuts say "No pre-twisting required" right on the box.

I thought "back-wired" meant that the screw plate tightens the connection like GFCI recepts...

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 08-27-2001).]

Which one was pretwisted and which one was not? (Short or long pair)

(Don't flame me for the colors of the wires, I thought the twist would show better with the contrast...)

I used this technique on one pair of wires:

I stripped each wire 1-1/4" and pre-twisted with the lineman's pliers (my first pair... Ideal brand, not "Kleins") Then I snipped the bare twisted ends back to about 5/8" and installed the yellow WireNut by hand until I could tighten no more, then removed it...

On the other pair, I stripped 5/8" off and installed a yellow WireNut by hand three turns, then tightened it an additional 8 turns with the yellow "Ideal WireNut Wrench". Then I removed the wirenut for the photo.

Can you tell which one is which?

Please note:
The pretwisted version only had three scratch lines in each wire from the WireNut spring, whereas the one done "my way" has 9 scratches where the spring grabbed. Three times as many...

Also, viewing into a light, there are voids between the wires on the pre-twisted version, none on "my way"... It's all about contact area and pressure, folks... (With a Cu to Cu connection...)

Oh yes, and if one used improper care when stripping the wire (and they "ring" it even just a little) the wires may break when done "my way"... but I've never had a wire break in many years with the way I strip wires. (Notice the only non-Ideal brand tool is the strippers... Hey I think Klein's are better... I'm not Ideal crazy!)

How about a picture and 1000 words! (sorry)



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 08-28-2001).]

'66,

I think this is a "to each, his own" type of thing. As long as they're tight. With pre-twisting I can see it before it gets covered by the wirenut, I don't have to guess how much to twist the wirenut

Maybe others can comment on different types' instructions as to pre-twisting being required/recommended?

BTW, nice display, but the Tools are crooked

P.S.
Looks like the Linesman's could use a dab of insulation on the bottom left handle.


Bill

Can you tell which one is which?

actually, i can't...

I thought "back-wired" meant that the screw plate tightens the connection like GFCI recepts...

I stand corrected, thanks

I think the top pair was pre-twisted. Actually, they look identical. If I'm right, let me know and I'll let you know why I GUESSED the top!

If I had to guess (no Lifelines left) I would say that the top (longer wire) was pre-twisted.

Bill

I just wanted to show that my technique is equal or even superior to pretwisting and hand tightening...


I only use them to drive the occasional staple in tight spots... My strippers are my cutting tool, since they're cheapest to replace...(I generally buy one pair a month to keep 'em sharp...)
Kind of a sentimental old tool too I guess....

I'll give some more time for others to guess...

Consider this:

When pre-twisting, the end inserted into the wirenut is larger, and therefore starting out further back in the wider area of the spring. It gets tight sooner, not allowing full contact with the wires (hence only three scratches).

With using the wrench and not pre-twisting, the end is inserted further up into the narrow part of the spring, as it tightens to maximum torque-vs-maleabilty, the wires get twisted very closely to the points of contact, creating more of a solid mass for current path and heat transfer. (Hence 9 scratches and tighter "weave")

Splices are the weak link... Make them as "strong" as possible...

As far as Wagos and the like, having a Cu to Brass to Cu connection that is merely "sprung" into place, (as apposed to screwed or twisted) is just a very bad idea in the weak link of our trade.

Later, I'll tell you the story of why I'm so anal about this...

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 08-28-2001).]

Having started all this, I guess I should throw in my 2-cents worth.

I'm not used to seeing wire nutted connections, but I would guess that the longer (top) connection was pre-twisted. I can't see the actual Cu-Cu connection too clearly, but I'm going on the twists farther back along the insulated part of the wires.

Back to the definition of back-wired:
I've never seen the terminations on one of your GFI recepts. so I'm still a little unsure on this point.

I do have a box full of U.S. fittings here, including several hospital-grade 5-15 singles. It appears that if a wire is clamped on one side of the screw, it can emerge straight back or be bent out to the side. To fit under the plate on the other side, though, it would have to be put in through a hole in the rear of the molding.

I figured it must be something to do with this, but now I'm confused.

In back-wired recepts the screw and backplate still provide pressure for the termination, rather than an internal spring/catch. But they will look similar in having holes in the back to insert the wires.

GFCI's usually have provisions for two back-wired conductors per screw.

These are considered quite dandy in my opinion whereas backplugged (spring/catch type) are not.

Have to agree with you there. Maybe I don't have enough experience of the push-in terminations to really comment, but I just don't like the idea of such a light form of connection carrying 15A.

By the way, our fittings all use screw connections, though not of the same type as yours.

Pardon me while I attempt to "tie" the two "threads" back together again...


You make valid points... I've examined the very WireNuts I used for the demonstration and found no visible damage to the springs... They both looked new...

Ideal Wire Nuts have a square cross-sectional-shaped spring (for better grab) and is imbedded in the housing for maximum support. I'd say one would split the side at the same moment the spring deformed.

B-Caps an the other hand are loose and floppy and never seem to get tight no matter how many times I twist them... I've pulled springs completely out of 'em before...Cheap.

My technique also only takes about 20 to 30 seconds, where pretwisting adds about 20 to 30 seconds to the procedure. Assuming the outcome is equal... it is twice as fast.

Right now I have no WireNut boxes (you know, they may no longer say "no pre-twisting required" but they did at one time...) Mine usually go straight into the "tackle box"...
The wrench is being used within the guidelines given by the manufacture of the tool and the WireNuts... I can't find a copy of it either...

Tom, you got any help here?

Oh, and as far as me saying to crank them until they almost break, etc.

I tend to "exaggerate for clarity" which is sometimes neccesary in this sensationalized world... In telling someone to "Crank it until your wrist hurts" I hope to at least get half of that torque out of it!

Tell them "finger tight" and they'll just be barely snug...

One man's "snug" is another man's "tight"...
(And probably "loose" in my opinion)

Having actual torque specs would be nice... No luck in my googol of google searches...

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 08-28-2001).]

The boxes for Ideal wingnuts still say "no pretwisting necessary". I have always pretwisted solid conductors but not stranded.
Don(resqcapt19)

One man's "snug" is another man's "tight"...
A pack of B-2's comes with a tool. I used the tool once to do an entire job, setting the clutch on high, blew a lot out.

Kind of a sentimental old tool too I guess....
...Klien makes grips, you need to dip them in hot water, then they slip on.

I generally buy one pair a month
Some come apart, can be sharpened, and sides exchanged...

I'm so anal about this...
well your in good company

Steve (sparky),

I meant my Klein strippers I replace about monthly (about $9 at Blue Grass Elec.)... the stripping holes wear out too, which can lead to ringed conductors when they get hard to strip and the tool gets sloppy...

I just need to retire the ol' lineman's and get a pair of "Klein's"... They're rather dull and stiff and only good for an "electrician's hammer" now... The cheap strippers will cut infinitely better! But since I don't pretwist and I use cable cutters for heavy stuff, I rarely use the ol' lineman's anyway! Its main purpose is hammering staples and boxes in tight spots!

Notice that the ol' lineman's have never been burnt! (How many of you can say you got the same lineman's for the last 18-scratch that- 17 years that ain't got a copper-plated hole in 'em?) The spot on the strippers' cutter is from cutting down 6-32 screws to fit without bottoming out...



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 08-28-2001).]

Notice that the ol' lineman's have never been burnt! (How many of you can say you got the same lineman's for the last 18-scratch that- 17 years that ain't got a copper-plated hole in 'em?)

LOL!
I've worked with those that will purposely do this so they can strip with them too!

The tan Ideal wire nuts have a hexagonal end on them.(I never knew this). I watched in awe as one of the guys whipped out his 5/16" nut driver and cranked one down to "megatorque". This method uses the entire hand's power (on a cushion grip, yet) rather than the 2 "power fingers" most of us have developed over the years.

OK... The top one was pre-twisted. You were all correct... Guess it was my sloppy pre-twisting technique (from not doing it) that gave it away... I'm sure you guys that pretwist daily could match the neatness of the shorter one... (I was trying to be "honest" about it...)

Have I proven that the "Ideal" way is, at least, acceptable (if not superior)?

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 08-29-2001).]

Ironically, I do "pretwist" stranded wire...

But I twist them with my fingers to insure a good start on the wirenut...

If more than two wires are being joined, and all are solid, I use the no-twist method, if stranded is involved, it will get wrapped around a solid, but such as in the case of light fixtures, I usually pigtail so that the #16 stranded only has to mate up with 1 #14 or #12 solid.

The stranded wires need to be stripped a little longer and the stranded end needs to catch the WireNut spring first to insure a quality connection.

That's sort of the technique I developed and it could be completely wrong...

Hi again from an informed DIY'er...I am happy to see that I follow the practices of a lot of you out there, where my experience permits, but, man, those little #16's on light fixtures irritate the #@%&$ out of me-I have changed out old fixtures for many people, and found the stranded 'zip' cord to be brittle and discoloured-no apparent problems with the wiring methods, it appears to be simply age. Why do they use this stuff? Appearances?

since i have had to fix too many joints that were not pretwisted i insist on twisting the wire then installing the wirenut. does not matter who m,ade the wire nut if too tight it breaks-if too loose it will fall off.
did have one batgh of B-caps melt under 15 amp load. replaced with new wirenuts no problem since.

Paul,
I have quite a bit of experience in using wirenuts, we use them all the time for performing "tap-offs", from Overhead Lines to Transformers and DropOut fuses.
Most of the wires we use for these purposes,
come pre-twisted, if you get my drift,ie: they are twisted up more than a standard stranded wire.
Wirenuts in this respect are the only thing, we can use to effect a decent connection,
especially, where High Voltage is concerned,
as with any loss at these voltages, can have very damaging effects.

Presumably you're talking about big wirenuts here. I wonder how the pros/cons differ between these and the types used on #14 or #12 wire?

Heres a few pics of some old wirenuts i took out of a house i rewired, they were called "SCRUITS"




These were from a house that i stripped out, original wiring from the 40s(ish) i think

Scruit with old "NONAZO" type cable.




I used these wirenuts, which push into a grease filled tube, for an irrigation system (12v), only time ive ever used wirenuts. Heck i didnt know they were wirenuts untill i saw this post, ive allways called them scruits .

Sorry Paul,
I think that we may have a cross-over in terms, here.
A wire-nut in my terminology, is a device that traps two or more wires under a common split bolt and a nut arrangement.
Damn, I wish that I could give you a picture
of one, will have a look around.
Sorry for the mis-understanding!.

Wirenuts (or Scruits) are also known as Marrettes.

That picture of the porcelain Scruit reminded me of a big porcelain wire nut I have somwhere. I removed it from an electric Menorah and replaced it with a proper-sized modern plastic one with the steel spring.

The porcelain ones don't have that spring inside and can slip off.

Some cheap plastic wire nuts that come with lighting fixtures also don't (or didn't in the old days) have the metal spring inside either -these were usually the tiny ones meant to connect an 18-AWG conductor to a 14-AWG or 18-AWG to 18-AWG (inside lamps), just a spiral cut in the inside of the plastic.

I always replace these on sight...they're worthless.

Hi San,
Thanks for those pictures. The ceramic/porcelain wirenuts are the only type I've ever seen used in the U.K., and as you say, generally on old wiring dating from the 1940s/early 1950s. They don't have the wire=spring as found in modern American wirenuts, and were mostly just used in lighting fixtures ("botch" jobs not counted!).