ECN Forum
Posted By: JoeKP shed on a GFCI?? - 06/16/09 06:22 PM
hey, does a shed need to be put on a GFCI breaker, or just the outlets lead by a GFCI outlet??
thanks
Posted By: Steve Miller Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/16/09 11:33 PM
Assuming there is a panel in it, the feeder does not. That being said ... In my area the AHJ determination was that it is treated like an unfinished basement. His logic was that since the receps in the shed will have grade level access for yard tools (used ouside) treat them as if they were outside.
If you're only taking one circuit to it and the plan is to feed it GFCI protected (from the house), either a GFCI breaker or GFCI recep will do the trick. (recep is a lot cheaper)
Posted By: NORCAL Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/17/09 01:43 AM
See 210.8 2005 /2008 NEC
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and
20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in
(1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter
protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor
located at or below grade level not intended as habitable
rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas,
and areas of similar use
(3) Outdoors
Exception to (3): Receptacles that are not readily accessible
and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for
electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted
to be installed in accordance with 426.28.
(4) Crawl spaces at or below grade level
(5) Unfinished basements for purposes of this section,
unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of
the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited
to storage areas, work areas, and the like
Exception to (5): A receptacle supplying only a permanently
installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall
not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter
protection.
FPN: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for power supply
requirements for fire alarm systems.
Receptacles installed under the exception to
210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the
requirements of 210.52(G).
(6) Kitchens where the receptacles are installed to serve
the countertop surfaces
(7) Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks where the receptacles
are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside
edge of the sink
(8) Boathouses

That was a copy & paste from the 2008 NEC.
Posted By: JoeKP Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/17/09 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by Steve Miller
Assuming there is a panel in it, the feeder does not. That being said ... In my area the AHJ determination was that it is treated like an unfinished basement. His logic was that since the receps in the shed will have grade level access for yard tools (used ouside) treat them as if they were outside.
If you're only taking one circuit to it and the plan is to feed it GFCI protected (from the house), either a GFCI breaker or GFCI recep will do the trick. (recep is a lot cheaper)


There is no Panel/Sub-panel in the shed, just a single 12/2 with ground going out to the shed as a feed.
Posted By: JoeKP Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/17/09 02:53 AM
Originally Posted by NORCAL
See 210.8 2005 /2008 NEC
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and
20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in
(1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter
protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor
located at or below grade level not intended as habitable
rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas,
and areas of similar use
(3) Outdoors
Exception to (3): Receptacles that are not readily accessible
and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for
electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted
to be installed in accordance with 426.28.
(4) Crawl spaces at or below grade level
(5) Unfinished basements for purposes of this section,
unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of
the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited
to storage areas, work areas, and the like
Exception to (5): A receptacle supplying only a permanently
installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall
not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter
protection.
FPN: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for power supply
requirements for fire alarm systems.
Receptacles installed under the exception to
210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the
requirements of 210.52(G).
(6) Kitchens where the receptacles are installed to serve
the countertop surfaces
(7) Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks where the receptacles
are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside
edge of the sink
(8) Boathouses

That was a copy & paste from the 2008 NEC.


Thanks, what i am going to do is on the feed in, i will add an inline GFI switch (the kind with only the buttons, no outlets)(like this: http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/104072404/2006_UL_listed_GFCI_ground_fault/showimage.html )
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/17/09 02:57 AM
Joe:

As Norcal posted above....
"(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor
located at or below grade level not intended as habitable
rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas,
and areas of similar use"
Posted By: JoeKP Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/17/09 03:03 AM
Originally Posted by HotLine1
Joe:

As Norcal posted above....
"(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor
located at or below grade level not intended as habitable
rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas,
and areas of similar use"


i see, and i have to use the GFI recep, as i said above, because the panel in the garage is a screw in fuse panel, hopefully going to get upgraded too
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/17/09 03:08 AM
Interesting link...
Pic is a faceless (deadfront) GFI; text reads 'receptacle.
Side pics are GFI receptacles. $3.xx(US) ea, 3000 pc minimum.
Interesting?
Posted By: JoeKP Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/17/09 03:11 AM
Originally Posted by HotLine1
Interesting link...
Pic is a faceless (deadfront) GFI; text reads 'receptacle.
Side pics are GFI receptacles. $3.xx(US) ea, 3000 pc minimum.
Interesting?

yeah, thats just an example, but you know what i mean, ill put that in the line before it goes out to the shed, would that be OK by code??
Posted By: ChicoC10 Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/17/09 07:34 PM
My take on sheds is that in most cases they are not permanent structures. Sure they might never move once installed, but they might.

I consider them a plug-in appliance. I pipe to a bell box on a post near the shed with a GFI receptacle and a bubble cover installed. Set up the shed with a WP pigtail and plug it in.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/17/09 08:21 PM
There are two matters to consider.

First, with the sole exception of elevator pits, the NEC does not require GFCI protection to be either at the breaker or the first receptacle. (Elevator pits must have a GFCI receptacle).

Second, as I've often pointed out, you need to know more than the NEC. In this instance, the running of power to the shed may require you to get a permit for the shed.

As for the shed being "portable," that is something to consider in your design. I have seen too many sheds merilly cartwheeling across the freeway on windy days! You might consider using a "power inlet" device to connect an extension cord to the shed. Or, as another mentioned, mounting the receptacle on a post near the shed.

The NEC wording is unfortunate; I would consider GFCI protection mandatory regardless of whether the shed has a floor, or not.

As a side note, there are now receptacles that have 'night lights' built in. I would consider adding one of these, just to indicate whether the power is 'on.' I also might consider one of those twist-knob timers to help prevent accidentally leaving the power 'on.'
Posted By: gfretwell Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/17/09 09:24 PM
It is simple in Florida. A shed is a structure and you need a permit. It also has to meet the wind code so you need engineered/stamped plans. Those rubbermaid and sheet metal deals at the home store are not legal.
There is no such thing as a temporary shed.
It will also require a permit if you take power out there and it will have to be GFCI.

YMMV depending on how diligent your code enforcement officers are and how nosy your neighbor is.
The guy across the street from me did get busted. (10 days to tear it down, bring it into compliance or pay $250 "dailies").
Fortunately the guy who ratted him out moved but that didn't help the neighbor.
Posted By: JoeKP Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/18/09 02:20 AM
this shed has already been installed and wired, i am just adding a few outlets, and removing some of the previous hacks
Posted By: JoeKP Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/18/09 02:31 AM
this shed has been up for about 3-4 years as well, and as far as i know, i think the last permit pulled in that house was back in 1993
Posted By: EV607797 Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/19/09 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by gfretwell
It is simple in Florida. A shed is a structure and you need a permit. It also has to meet the wind code so you need engineered/stamped plans. Those rubbermaid and sheet metal deals at the home store are not legal.
There is no such thing as a temporary shed.


Around here, a permit for a shed is only required if it is over 120 square feet or over 8 feet high. It then must either utilize some form of permanent footings or in the case of a pre-built unit, mobile home tie-downs at each corner are acceptable. When I had pulled a permit for mine, I had to explain to the inspector how these tie downs work since he had never seen them!
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/19/09 07:31 PM
"I consider them a plug-in appliance."

Interesting.....I think that's a stretch of a vivid imiganation!
Posted By: gfretwell Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/20/09 12:20 AM
The issue here is wind. In a hurricane, or even an afternoon squall, one of those temporary sheds tends to be an airborne missile.
I know they don't understand wind codes up north. That is why any decent storm results in a lot of wind damage.
Posted By: ChicoC10 Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/23/09 08:45 PM
Quote
Interesting.....I think that's a stretch of a vivid imiganation!


It may be a bit creative but not as creative as some of the shed or even garage wiring I've seen. I'm not rewriting code here, just trying to cover my butt.

If it isn't a permanent structure I'd rather insure that the actual premise wiring to it is legal, GFI protected, and easily disconnected. Let's face it, the owner is going to do whatever he wants to the wiring inside once I leave.

High wind isn't a constant threat around here and there are a lot sheet metal and plastic sheds around. But we did have a really windy day last year that could have and probably did send some sheds flying. Seems if they were cord and plug connected nobody would have to make an emergency call to an electrician if they did go wandering.

If it is a permanent building, what I would call a garage or shop, and the larger wooden shed kits qualify as that IMO, then lets wire it right and close up the bays with OSB or drywall.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/23/09 11:12 PM
If this whole shed is "cord and plug connected" then the answer is simple, the receptacle it plugs into has to be GFCI because it is "outdoors". 210.8(A)(3)

This was really very common up north, usually done with an orange cord strung through the trees. It was all part of that "temporary" thinking.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/25/09 01:04 AM
Greg:
Where exactly 'up north' are you refering to??

Sheds here (over 100 sq ft) require permits. Power/ltg to it requires a permit. Ah, but that's in a perfect world. I am not aware of any anchoring of the <100 sq ft units, and yes, I have seen a few the wind got to.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/25/09 02:24 AM
PG county Maryland. Much south of that "permit" was a fish
Posted By: ChicoC10 Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/25/09 11:30 PM
Through the trees? That's more professional than most of the orange cord jobs I've come across. Usually they are posing a trip hazard as well. That is if they actually used a cord instead of fabbing one up out of romex.

There is a difference between what I'm saying and that though.

BTW 120 sq. ft. is what needs a permit around here.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/26/09 12:11 PM
Funny thing them "semi-permanent sheds" they sell at the DIY stores.
I remember there was a particularly windy day over here last year, we saw one of these things flying over the main highway with the "wiring" straggling behind it.

We were returning back to the fire station in a fire appliance, after a call to nail down roofing iron (corrugated steel sheets) that had lifted in the wind.

To see a whole "shed" fly across a busy highway, was nothing less than enthralling and scary at the same time.

My very loose interpretation of a shed, is a structure that is permanently affixed to a concrete slab and a bottom plate of enough strength to hold it down under all weather conditions.

It actually makes me wonder if things like this are designed to be wired, the tin foil thin walls and lack of real structural strength only serves to re-inforce my thoughts.

Just my $0.02 worth.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 06/26/09 04:59 PM
I thought Florida building codes were draconian when I first moved here but now I laugh when I hear these stories and remember houses with serious wind damage in summer "storms" we would call a shower here.
A lot of people balk at the idea that a shed needs to be built to the same standard as a house but the issue is not the shed, it is the house next door that gets hit by the flying shed and all it's contents.
Not only is the bottom plate going to be tied to the foundation, the roof will too via the metal connectors in the framing or the steel in the block/concrete matrix.
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: shed on a GFCI?? - 07/02/09 05:40 PM
If you plan on putting any receptacles in the shed, it's going to have to have GFCI protection. The code does not require lighting circuits to be on GFCI, but it does not prohibit it, either.

One point of considering I didn't see brought up is the exception in NEC that allows a 20A GFCI-protected circuit to be buried as shallow as 12" without having to step up to RGC or a concrete cap. If that's all you need, and the GFCI outlet is easily accessible if you ever trip it, there's really no reason not to GFCI protect the entire feeder.
© ECN Electrical Forums