ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues New Grounding Methods ???

I appreciate your responses, and I am seeing further into this issue than I did before.

After maore thinking based on what you guys are saying: There are millions of single family dwellings, multi-family dwellings, commercial buildings, and industrial facilities that have been operating for decades without a Ufer grounding electrode and they have not had any safety related incidences because of the lack of the Ufer ground. So in reality and for safety it is pretty much optional whether to tie it in or not?

So does it really need to be mandatory considering the realities and logistics of the construction site?

"After all it's there. If the EC does not have an existing contract, how do you tell the concrete guys to turn up a piece of rebar?"
This is actually up to the GC to ensure that the rebar is made available to the EC. The way it is done here is they use a 36" "corner bar" snap tied to the #5 in the footer. This will come up in a block core which is knocked out for the EC and sprayed green so they won't pour it solid.

In Va., we are still in the dark ages as we just adopted and put into place the 2000 Va. Uniformed Statewide Building Code that incorporates the 1999 NEC as well as the IRC and others. However, many years ago, our residential inspection division we to "combination cross-trained inspectors" so we get one inspector to review the inspections before we can go on. My point here is that it will be easier for our combination inspector to tell the footing contractor that he either needs to stub up a piece of rebar or reject the inspection until the EC can be named and has an opportunity to stub up a bar to make up his ground. Seems this should eventually a detail on the footing plan and would not pass footing inspection in any juristictions until it is in place!

If we could get away from this union jurisdictional thinking it would not be that unreasonable that a steel guy could actually slide an acorn over a piece of rebar, get a #4 on the right side and tighten the bolt.
A structural inspector should be able to handle looking at that.
Unfortunately that is not the way it works, even in a right to work state like Florida.
When I built my pool I ended up with 2 inspectors at virtually every step. One looked at the rebar and another looked at the #8 bonded to it. When I mentioned to the boys on the Fl IEAI board that the same guys tied the rebar and put on the bonding they lost their minds, threatening $500 fines all around if they saw it happen.

Greg


For us in MA it has nothing to do with union non-union.

In MA that would require changing the law, only a licensed electrician can perform electric work and it must be inspected by an electrical inspector. The electrical inspectors in MA expect to see and approve the connection to the rebar if used.

I doubt any building inspector would want to perform electrical inspections anymore than an electrical inspector would want to check out building code compliance.

We are not talking about inspecting a fire pump controller at a nuke plant. This is one stinking acorn with a piece of wire under it.
Do you really think the guy the EC would free up to go put this on is any smarter than the guy who puts in the footer steel?

Do you think seeing if this is tight is beyond the abilities of the structural inspector?
At least he will be there looking in the hole. The electrical inspector will probably sign this off out the window of his truck

Hmmm...maybe our cross-trained inspectors are moving into the "not so dark ages..."

Greg Really I do understand what you are saying, it is a simple task and could be performed by any one that has hands.

That said you are not familiar with the inspection process here in MA.

There very few inspectors I have met in MA that will do a 'drive by' inspection. They get out and check the work....really.

Example; I recently took a rough inspection in an office remodel, the inspector looked in all approx. 400 outlet and switch boxes, sometimes with a flashlight to make sure my grounds where made up.

I also did a large job that had dozens of Cad welds to rebar, the inspector was out each day to look at them before the cement was poured. I actually tried to get him to sign off on the rest after the first couple of days...no way, he wanted to see each one.

99% of the time I must be there when he gets there, it would be a bad move to send a helper to take the inspection. If the inspector does not know the person has a license he will ask to see it.

We also have a separate State department of licensing that can stop by any job at any time and ask to see everyones license or apprentice card. (An apprentice must register with the state and carry their card)

What you are suggesting will never happen here in MA.

It's OK though as during the 2002 code cycle we had an amendment that basically said I do not need to connect to the footing if it is already poured when I get the job.

I do not know if that will remain in 2005.

Bob

Bob, here is the link to the MA 2005 proposals.
Check out the commentary on 250.50 I beleive it is on page 21. http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/...e-2005-Massachusetts-Electrical-Code.pdf

Scott your the man, thanks for that link.

If I am reading it correctly we will have to use the footing for grounding.

It should get interesting, the GCs are going to have to learn not to pour footings without an electrician around.

Presently many times the company I work for is not even signed onto a project before the footings are poured.

It is very common for us to arrive with foundations and steel in place.

This 'learning' curve is going to be interesting to watch.

The shop will need to put something in our contracts that puts any costs associated with getting to the rebar entirely on the GC.

Bob