ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues Ground Rod Woes...

>a well driller and ready-mix
You just need a large drill to make the hole. I was suggesting just a 1" diameter not 8". Actually, 6 to 8" diameter at the top foot or so would make a good funnel. If you mix the cement to a consistency of almost water, you could probably pour it down a 0.75" hole.

And the Portland and anhydrous lime you mix yourself in a tub or bucket, real runny, and pour it down the hole. The materials cost a couple bucks. Its not like it would take a full bag. Run the rod up and down in it to get out the air.

You could have been doing something less tiring, like building a drill press on your back bumper.

I'm thinking that you could build this thing out of stuff you already own.

I feel bad for you. That's why I was thinking about what I would do if I were faced with that very often.

You would have gotten the same $700 whether you spent an hour drilling or 6 hours sledging, yes?
I figure you lost $110. If you lose $100 a week, that's $5000 a year, not to mention the aches and pains.

Say, if I built one for you, would you be willing to split the profit and pay me $25 per hole?

>the plates provided as low a resistance as a ground rod system does in other areas of the country.
Even during a long period of dry weather?

Put the plate near where the kitchen sink drains from the trailer.

Virgil;
the sparky who can meet the MINIMUM nec, not over, not under... eats best.
read 250-50, as well as 250-52
( first sentence)

a roll of #4 bare(50') is cheaper than 4 G-rods, as well as a better ohmic value not to mention your time pounding...



Now if i could only convince the utility of this....

Virgil,

As long as there are all those carpenters & handymen doing electrical work, you can count on being underpaid. When you pass your inspectors test (think positive) you'll have a chance to do something about it. An acquaintance of mine in Grafton put 3 out of business in the first month. They decided it was too much trouble to do it right.

Your rate of pay will also increase with time as you establish your reputation. Every time I raise my rates, I will lose a little business. The ones I'm losing are usually only looking for a low price anyhow & usually could care less about quality & safety.

You'll get there, you just gotta believe.

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom (edited 07-12-2001).]

Sparky,
We allow bent ground rods all the time at Dulles Airport. We have bedrock here too !!! Why do we allow it? because ground rods "stink" as grounds, and we use the Ufer for literally everything, supplemented by the rods. We do require that the entire thing be under ground though. Ground ring ??? probably cheaper, but I agree that a few extensions on a Hilti (Bosch ? Milwaukee?) would be the way to go, used that myself for the 12 years I was in business as well as the 20 years prior I worked for other people, the cash outlay may be somewhat steep originally, but Lord the time and effort saved makes it well worth it. I also agree that something may be built from materials laying around but then some irritating inspector would ask for UL listing, OSHA rating,... etc.. Come on guys, don't pretend you wouldn't.

Dspark,

Sorry, once again I tend to "exagerate for clarity" which I sometimes find necessary in this sensationalized world...


How do I build such a drill?

To rant even more:
Guess I really need to shell out the dough for a Hilti... My jigsaw and Sawzall both died in the same week, and I haven't replaced them yet. I did buy a B&D Cordless Jig, but it ain't "all that". My Bosch in-line jig was going to cost $120 to fix... It was $150 new. Crazy. I also want the DeWalt 18V cordless sawzall, hammer drill, light and trim saw kit for $450 that Lowes has... The 36V Rotary Hammer would be nice too... I don't have a generator either...

I need a really big paying job, that requires few tools...

Steve,

A 30" deep ditch the 190' circumference of the trailer would have been a horrible experience. But I have considered ground rings where a trencher was available...

I was pulling up melon sized boulders just burying the #4 GEC at 6"...

Remember, just a shovel, a sledge, and oh yeah, I had a spud bar too.

To be completely painfully honest, I'd say I've had to bend about 90% of the rods I've installed... I've never cut a rod, though.
I've never installed anything but ground rods, mainly because of the lack of training for any other method.

However, I'll try to be more open minded...

>How do I build such a drill?
I would have to come poke around your garage and see what you have.

You need a vertical frame. Build it from 1" black steel pipe. Put mounts on your truck bumper so you can stand up the 10' rails at the job site.

What will we use for power? Get a 2 cycle lawn mower engine (that runs). Cheap and powerful.

Put on a square horse trailer hitch box (the female end) in line and perfectly centered on the shaft in place of a blade. This is your chuck.

Get several sections of 1" rebar, say 3' (to start the hole), 5', 7.7', and 10' long.

Weld male trailer hitch ends onto them.
Grind deep spiral grooves into the bottoms.
Clean up the spirals on the rebar to auger the dust better.

Mount guides on the engine so it follows the frame rails and some that you can grab to raise and lower the engine. You might even make an easy way to apply your body weight as downdraft on the engine platform.

Hitch the short rebar auger in.

Start your engine. Drill away. Stop engine. Pull out, switch to the longer auger. Repeat until hole is 100" deep or whatever you want.

You can improve the design by putting a titanium bit on the end, using a real rock auger, adding a rack and pinion crank or a rope and pulley, a lock to hold the engine up,... You could use a reinforced mud mixer stirrer as an auger for the first 6" inches to make that funnel.


Being that you are a one man band, I doubt you'll be complaining to OSHA... unless, did you complain about all that sledgehammering work?

DSpark,
you might be on to something here...i'm a sucker for inovation.

George,
welcome!..for sure- G-rods are all for show,
My Q is, does a UFER being 250-50(c) installed with regards to 250-52
Where none of the electrodes specified in 250-50 is avaialble, one or more of the electrodes specified in (b) through (d) shall be used
mean that i can forgo the rods? I mean to implement this on new foundation pours only of course.

Q--
What if i saw off rods and simply pound the cut piece in and make onto them, 8' of earth contact is 8' right?

A couple of thoughts here, guys. I feel for virgil, since I too have had my bad rod days.

In all the books about grounding, it shows concentric rings around the rod, largest at the top, smallest at the bottom. If you bend the rod, you take away the rings from that section, because the rings now overlap. This reduces the effectivness of the rod. This is the reason for not installing two rods within 6-8' of each other.

A 1" hole 100" deep, filled with concrete is not a concrete encased electrode. It is a rod covered by concrete. And isn't the rod suppossed to be in direct contact with "soil"? Look at 250-50(c) for the requirements for a concrete-encased electrode (covered by 2" of concrete, located within or near the bottom of a foundation, etc...)

Hopefully this grounding electrode that you are installing is for the service only, and not for the mobile home. You do not install an electrode at the home.

I agree with the others that a rod is almost useless, so why sweat it? Rod won't go straight down, try 45 degrees. Still won't go, lay in trench. Can't get a 2' trench? Then you are going to have other problems than your ground rod install, such as burial depth of the feeder, tie downs for the home, etc..

If this service is built on a pole that the utility has installed, just attach to the pole ground that they put in, which is probably a butt ground. Use irreversible crimps.

Other than this, I'm afraid I can't give you anymore ideas.

Rick Miell