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Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220491 02/04/20 06:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,476
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Texas_Ranger Offline
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1) Polarisation is mainly an issue with ES floor and table lamps. Most of these have a Euro plug, which isn't polarised in any type of socket.
2) There are non-polarised CEE 7/5 sockets, or more precisely, mirrored double sockets with the earth pins in the centre.
3) One could easily design sockets that accept either CEE 7/4, 7/7 and IEC 60906 or 7/6, 7/7 and IEC 60906 plugs for an easy transition
4) The biggest issue trying to replace BS1363 with anything else is the unfortunate fact that BS1363 sockets can be on circuits up to 32 amps and rely on fuses in the plugs for short-circuit protection. On the other hand, Ireland requires any electrical work to be carried out by professionals, with hefty fines of up to 6000 Euros for DIY work, so safely upgrading existing installations doesn't seem impossible. Ring final circuits would have to be split into two radials, radials could be downgraded, provided they aren't too large.
5) Shuttered Schuko sockets are readily available and becoming more and more common. Some EU countries already require them everywhere, others in places like kindergartens.

On a side note regarding circuit overcurrent protection: more careful Germans tend to worry about the capacity of Schuko sockets to carry the rated 16 amps for extended periods of time (some claim manufacturers only rate them for 1 hour at 16 amps and 10 amps continuously but I haven't found any reliable sources for that, many people get seriously confused by the historic 10-/16~ rating) and especially moderate overloads, as a B or C16 MCB can survive 1.45 times its rated current for up to an hour. The French on the other hand happily install identical sockets on C20 MCBs, according to one source even C25.

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Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220492 02/04/20 07:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
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dsk Offline
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Electric storage heaters are the common way to heat watere in Scandinavia, here in Norway we have had pretty much problems with those socets on heaters with more than 1500W elements, so new storage heters are not alowed to have schuco plugs unless the effect is less than 1500W (we have had 2kW storage heater in my home since 1988, and never had a problem) smile

[Linked Image from elsjekk-as.no]

By my opinion, it is not the plug and socket who is the problem, but for the most how the wire is terminated in 1) The plug, and 2) The socket. I keep an eye on such things and on 2 washing macines, I felt hot plugs, changed the molded plug to a new one, and the problem was solved. It seems to be important to use end ferrules.
[Linked Image from i.ebayimg.com]



Last edited by dsk; 02/04/20 07:41 AM.
Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220493 02/04/20 08:10 PM
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Texas_Ranger Offline
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Yes, terminating the wires properly is crucial! All burning I've seen was from loose wires, once even in a moulded plug (on a dishwasher)!

Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220495 02/06/20 07:52 PM
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djk Offline
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TexasRanger: Historically polarisation wouldn't have made much difference for lamps here as they were all bayonet fittings anyway - i.e. two springy pins at the bottom of the bulb holder and no screw contacts. ES fittings have only become common in recent years, but the BC fittings are still the de facto norm.

For whatever reason, Irish electricians tended not to use rings as much as their UK counterparts. It's permitted, but not as common. You'll typically find most socket circuits are on B20 breakers. We also no longer allow rings in kitchens due to the cluster of high wattage appliances likely to be encountered. So, you're supposed to install at least 3 radials.

Schuko's still mentioned in Irish standards as IS-180 and the modern references are just a referral to CEE 7 standards. The original Irish standard documents were quite interesting as they describe in considerable detail how to test Schuko plugs i.e. overloading them with higher amperages for considerable periods of time and even dropping them from a standard height onto various surface types.

The main barrier to change here would be just the huge inconvenience of it. Also, BS1363 sockets are flat and require very shallow wall boxes relative to Schuko. The flush versions are much tidier looking and don't catch fluff, grease etc. The plugs are rather bulky however, although as I was mentioning they are getting slimmer due to recent amendments to the standard that allows for folding pins and smaller plug bodies.

The main risk we have is the UK wandering off into some completely non-compliant standards. It wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that they might say start accepting products certified in Mainland China if that were part of some trade deal etc etc.
...

As for IEC 60906

From what I read, the main objectors to it were the UK and Germany, both of whom made technical arguments against it. So, it never progressed in Europe.

You certainly could make a Schuko or French socket with an extra hole that would accommodate IEC 60906 in the medium term. It would just be like a neater version of the Italian sockets that do similar, as AFAIK IEC 60906 would fit inside an existing Schuko outlet.

You could also do a BS1363 socket with IEC 60906 sockets on a double plate. For example, this page shows BS1363 13amp and BS546 2amp sockets with local fusing on on a single double plate. There's no particular reason you couldn't do similar with a 16 amp fuse for a IEC 60906 socket.


See no. 10 :

https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/British1.html

https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/GB/MEM-BS1363+546_socket.jpg

I would assume in Ireland we won't do anything unless it becomes absolutely apparent that using BS1363 is more inconvenient than switching back to Schuko. However, in the 1960s and 70s and well into the early 90s it was common enough to get items delivered with continental plugs and just cut them off and fit Irish ones. That could once again become the norm.

There's no way we'd adopt IEC 60906 unless the whole of the EU was doing it. It would be absolutely no advantage to do it on our own. We'd just be jumping from BS1363 to a system that was still incompatible with grounded European plugs.

It seems a bit of a weird choice for South Africa, given the size of that market. CEE 7 would have made more sense.

Last edited by djk; 02/06/20 07:55 PM.
Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220505 02/23/20 03:42 AM
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dsk Offline
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I could not resist this one

Attached Files pig-out-let.jpg
Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220506 02/26/20 10:11 AM
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andey Offline
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On page 1, Powercon was mentioned.
Although it will surprise you and had surprised me in the past, Powercon is not intended to be operated under load!

IEC C13 slides out too easy, for my personal feel. C19 just slightly better.
I live in a Schuko country and have experienced hot molded plugs myself.
In case the outlet is good, then It's actually the quality of the plug and the way of how the wires are connected inside.
I replaced numerous plugs of 2000W heaters with proper self-wirable plugs, and those get barely warm.
Ferrules are a must when doing that, and I also scrape the copper strands clean with a knife in such cases, before I crimp on the ferrules. Cheapo PVC cables release substances that turn the copper strands matte or even black, and that increases resistance to the ferrule or terminal.


As I was told, the original Schuko design was intended for "10 Amp continuous, 16 Amp short-time". This is why we have continuous loads like space heaters up to 10 Amp, and then dishwashers and washing machines with 10 and 13 Amp nameplates, and small instant water heaters that go under the sink and will only be used for very short times, with 16 Amp.

We do have an unlucky constellation with fusing though. The standard German outlet is fused at 16 amp.
Depending on the manufacturing tolerances of the breaker, it will allow up to 20 Amp continuous load and never-trip. Now if a non-engineer runs two power appliances, like 2 space heaters, or a washing machine and a dryer, on one multi outlet power strip, it will draw 17 to 19 Amp total and most likely never trip the breaker, but surely overheat the outlet and the power strip. This does happen and is a known fire source.
Most power devices like that nowadays have "do not use an Extension cord or power strip" in the manual, but who reads that...


Last edited by andey; 02/26/20 10:22 AM.
Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220507 02/26/20 10:36 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 58
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andey Offline
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That's why german electricial contractors who THINK will put 13A or 10A breakers in the panel for most outlets, and only put 16A for dedicated outlets like a dishwasher single outlet. But those breakers cost a bit more, and most will just put 16 Amp for everything and not even really check the distance to the outlet...

Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220508 02/26/20 11:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
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dsk Offline
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Here in Norway our regulations are based on the same as the German. If we use cords with more than approx 7 strands we should use ferrules, the most common breakers are 16A here too, but with a minimum of 2.5 mm^2 Cu wires, and if the run are long or the wires are located with limited cooling, the wires has to be thicker. 10A minimum 1.5 mm^2 Max voltage drop allowed from fuse to last outlet at 100% load there is 4%.

The outlets are still as you mentioned not made for high permanent load.

we had a periode of time where it was allowed to calculate voltage drop and use a tougher load like 13A on 1.5 or even 20A on shorter 2.5 wires, but those houses tended to burn down!

In the old days before PC and calculators and with fuses, the rule was 10A and 1.5mm^2 and 15A and 2.5mm^2




Last edited by dsk; 02/26/20 12:01 PM. Reason: adding tekst
Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220512 02/29/20 12:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,476
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Texas_Ranger Offline
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Quote
As I was told, the original Schuko design was intended for "10 Amp continuous, 16 Amp short-time". This is why we have continuous loads like space heaters up to 10 Amp, and then dishwashers and washing machines with 10 and 13 Amp nameplates, and small instant water heaters that go under the sink and will only be used for very short times, with 16 Amp.


I keep reading that, yet it's all hearsay. I do know two things:
1) Schuko is officially rated for 16 A AC or 10 A DC, which can be written as either 10-/16~ or just 10/16
2) Some very old Schuko sockets are only marked 10 A/250 V.

I wouldn't exclude the possibility that the alleged 10 A continuous/16 A short-term rating is a simple misunderstanding of the abbreviated DC/AC rating.

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