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Joined: Apr 2002
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OK, so 400/230V gives you a single conductor with 230 volt potential, correct?

Based on that, what 'american' receptacle & cap would be compliant?



John
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I think the point is the OP would be using standard American 240v for a 6-15r or 6-20r (totally NEC compliant) and the euro appliance would not know the difference.
We see that with PC equipment all the time. It is pretty common to get a Euro power cord in the box along with the US 6-15 cord when you buy a piece of 2xx volt capable hardware.
I understand some of these kettles have detachable cords with an IEC C15 plug. (Similar to the PC C13 plug but with a notch in it indicating it is rated high temperature)
If you could find a cord with a NEMA 6-15 cap and a C15 on the other end you would be perfectly compliant.


Greg Fretwell
Joined: Mar 2005
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Originally Posted by gfretwell
Reno, the problem with splitting this out into 2 120v circuits is small appliance circuits can have no other outlets.
Mike, I suppose you could use a 20a circuit but it seems like overkill. I looked and they do have 3KW tea kettles tho so if you really want to be prepared, go with the 6-20.

210.52(B)(3) does not say the 2x 120V kitchen circuits can have serve other outlets. It permits these circuits to, and I quote:
Originally Posted by NEC 210.52(B)(3)
Kitchen Recpetacle Requirements. Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits, either of both of which shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specificed in 210.52(B)(1).
210.52 says this section provides requirements for 125V 15-20A circuits, but nowhere does it prohibit supplying 240V receptacles. This is the only code I can think of that would restrict what outlets may be on this circuit, and it explicitely allows additional kitchen receptacles not considered countertop small appliance receptacles to be supplied from the required small appliance recpetacle circuits.

I'm not sure about the reluctance to deviate from North American standards, either; NEC does not restrict us to specific NEMA 240V outlets. Nor does NEC even mandate UL listing. NEC mandates only that items be listed by an organization recognized by the AHJ. This could be UL, MIL-STD, CE, etc. Shouldn't be any issue putting a CE-listed euro style receptacle on the wall as long as the AHJ recognizes CE. Since UL isn't required, there could even be AHJs out there with a grudge against UL who refuse to accept UL-listed stuff... I'd hate to be a contractor in THAT city!

Suggesting that an adapter be used rather defeats the point- if a Schuko or UK plug isn't safe, then an adapter to those plugs wouldn't be safe either. If it's safe- and I see no reason it wouldn't be as safe as a 6-15R- it shouldn't be restricted.

Joined: Mar 2005
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The other argument is whether two 12-2 romex run in parallel are considered to be a single raceway, or two raceways....

Joined: Mar 2005
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The neutral, [always blue now by Eu directive and has been for over 10 years that I know of], is the same potential within a few volts as earth, or ground. The legal voltage is 230v 50hz, but the tolerance is sufficient to allow 240. Neutrals are only earthed/ grounded by the poco, not the consumer, so N is not connected to any metal chassis in any device, full stop. British plugs to BS 1363 have a cartridge fuse to suit our ring mains, usually 13A, but smaller sizes exist. This may be the stumbling block, as these fuses in the US will be as rare as hen's teeth. Next step for Joe Muggins will be a nail! sick
It would work 208 or 240 across N-L. Same applies to Shuko without the fuse hassle.
As to the legality, not my dept.


Wood work but can't!
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Steve
CE is not a recognized mark in North America. It is a completely different system than North American standards.
CE is a promise by the manufacturer that says they promise to make this product according to the Standard. US and Canadian approvals require testing by a certification lab like UL, CSA, Interteck, TUV, etc. There are audits of products built under a CE mark and the penalties are huge if a product is mis-labled. IE it does not actually meet the promise of meeting a standard.
There are a whole lot of laws that would need to be changed in both our countries before we could recognize a CE mark. Any AHJ that recognizes a CE mark in North America is assuming a huge pile of risk or does not understand what that mark means and what a mark like UL means.
Then there is the question of the Standards themselves. There are safety differences in these Standards and some Euro standards are not compatable with North American standards for the same products.
A CE mark is useless in our markets. Any AHJ recognizing it is making a mistake.

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Steve, you have to be careful cherry picking a phrase out of an article without reading all of it.
The first line of 210.52 says

Quote
This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets.


It does not apply to 240v outlets so they would be "other".

Alan, I hear you on the fuses but these days, if it exists in the world, you can buy it on the internet. I needed some real long stainless 12mm bolts for an outboard motor several years ago and they were unobtainium in the US but I found a German hardware company on the net that had them here in a week. Compared to the cost of most boat parts, it wasn't even that expensive wink

In real life we are not using 30a rings so if you just cut the 1363 off and put a 6-15 on it you should be OK. (15a O/C device on the circuit in the panel)


Greg Fretwell
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Greg, I did see that line, and I saw your previous comments in this thread regarding it, and spoke to it in my last post. This section provides REQUIREMENTS for 125V outlets; this section does not set any restrictions on 240V outlets. The wording in the kitchen section requires the two 125V outlet circuits, but has wording specifically permitting other outlets to be fed from it.

If this were anywhere else in the house, there would not be an issue placing proper ampacity 240V and 125V outlets on the same circuit. The only issue here is the two 125V circuits are specifically required to be installed. I see nothing in this section that prohibits 240V kitchen outlets from the 125V countertop circuits.

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As is everything in the NEC, it is what your AHJ says it is.
Call and ask them.
You are certainly defeating the purpose of having 2 small appliance circuits if you are sharing both of them with one appliance that eats most of the capacity of both circuits.



Greg Fretwell
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I can tell you that the 240 volt circuit would not meet the requirments for counter plugs here. they must be 125 volt 15 amp Split or 125 volt 20 amp t slot and we cannot put more than 2 duplex outlets on either home run. In a kitchen big enough to need 5 outlets would require another branch circuit. Special appliance circuits may be added but they do not fulfill the basic counter plug requirements.

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