ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues Something up his Sleeve ?

ok Renosteinke,
i guess i'd say a 'sleeve' in our trade is used to protect a conductor, or be something that is arranged beforehand (like your driveway point) to accomodate one

now anytime a definitional roadblock occurs in the nec, we usually turn to Noah Webster and/or associates for help.

We can note through use of this (yet again) living document of revolving vernacular that indeed the definitions of sleeve and raceway are different

therefore, a raceway cannot be a sleeve, and a sleeve cannot be a raceway.

we can aleady conclude that the nec has already gone to this extent

To further the pursuit of definitional correctness (because the entire debate hinges on it) would be to ask what sort of material(s) constitue a 'sleeve'

as there exists no whitebook or other standard for sleeve, i'm of the opion it's up to the ahj, correct?

~S~

I went down in my basement and found a couple of what I guess are sleeves. This short piece of EMT goes from one side of a beam in my house to the other, over the beam between the floor above and the beam (a gap of about two inches). I suppose it has a sleeve due to the floor nails protruding out like teeth from the underside of the floor.

http://stevelutzphoto.smugmug.com/photos/490218631_ZxxWF-M.jpg

http://stevelutzphoto.smugmug.com/photos/490218732_zBG9f-M.jpg

Another spot, under the bathroom closet, had a line going up from the basement to the first floor. I suppose this is a sleeve as well. I know some sort of protection is required when going through a floor, so I guess this is it.

http://stevelutzphoto.smugmug.com/photos/490218700_FjWJn-M.jpg

It used to be a fairly universal rule in Florida that all wire coming down a wall to a switch or outlet was in an EMT sleeve unless it was in a covered wall with enough depth to get 1.25" BACK. If this was 1x furring over block with drywall it was in pipe. Same in the unfinished spaces. That went away when we adopted the NEC, unaltered and now they use a stacker to get it 1.25" from the furring strip sideways but it is still right behind the drywall with a CMU "anvil" behind it so the nail has to puncture the cable.
A giant step backward in my opinion.

I suppose when we actually kill a few people they will reconsider like they did on bonding steel studs.

well Greg, i just roughed a job where that newer closed cell insulation was 'flashed' 3" in 2x6 construction. It was requested that i, as the electrician, violate this membrane as minimally as possible, so all the devicing is done via 1.5" depth 4 squares , w/ gangboxes for switching via 1/2" emt sleeves.

i'm rather big on conductor protection myself btw

nice shots Bigplanz. I guess this is what would be considered a fairly universal 'sleeve' among us.

a few characteristics come to mind here,

first the conductor isn't stripped, the eliptical cross section normally being considered in a raceway assumably due to captive heat not being a problem

secondly, the usual reference is made to 'short sections' , which has been considered to be self defining as the maximun length normally available for our trade, re; 10 feet

that said, i did have the thought that i purchase 3/4" greenfield (flexible mettalic) in 100' rolls

so this then introduces the possibility of a 40', or say 60' 'sleeve'

also noted is that 'sleeve' need only be open at one end.

Now i know i'm stretching the undefined here, but it is possible to construct two pieces fixed electrical entities qualifying as 'sleeve' merely via being broken in the middle

~S~

I would like to think that anything under a 10' length of pipe would be considered a sleeve because it is not a full length of pipe.

I would consider a sleeve being anything that is not terminated on each end in a box or cabinet and carries a stand alone wiring method.

That brings up 2 other undefined words describing a similar enclosure "<electrical>Duct" and "Chase". That sleeve under a driveway is clearly a duct, at least for derating purposes.

Did you guys see the ad for 20' lengths of EMT? Guess that shoots the 10' theory. LOL

The 'coil length' Sparky referenced (100') might work. So, a 90' chunk of greenfield with suitable bushings on the ends may be construed as a sleeve, but....support the greenfield; or 'snake it in'?

It's another of the gray areas that are AHJ accepted or rejected.

BTW: Do you guys agree on the 'electrical materials' for sleeves, or is plumb DWV or PVC sprinkler scraps OK?

I would not require "electrical" materials. Indeed, I can think of several situations where "electrical" materials might be inappropriate.

Guys, we can't expect codes to spell out every detail, make every decision for us. Folks have to be able to use their 'common sense,' then be able to explain their positions in a manner that any 12 strangers are likely to understand, and agree with.

The use of PVC fire sprinkler (orange) scraps for sleeves thru rated sheetrock walls in multi-family resi was a 'red tag' topic that was discussed at a NJEIA meeting recently.

Debate was that the orange pvc was not approved electrical materials.

BTW: Not my argument. Perhaps 'common sense' can be adopted into the next code cycle; sure looks like a lot of guys in my area have totally lost it