renosteinkeThank you for starting things out!
Great items to discuss, and I will address them each below:
First of all, I'd document the bejezus out of the existing building, mapping out every utility, and tracing every circuit. Why? So it's easier next time to add to or move things ... like walls.
Very good idea.
This documentation will make things in the future easier to contend with - and will assist in this initial project, as the Customer requests As-Builts.
We can apply these items to the proposal under "As-Builts and Record Drawings"
Since we want to get a well-rounded scenario, let's say the Building Department has requested Plans to be submitted for this Project.
We asked about this _BEFORE_ applying for the Permit, so it was not a "future surprise"
We are the Electrical Contractor doing the Installations, and Business & Professions codes allow us to perform the Electrical Design for this project - since we will be installing ("Design / Build").
Our Electrical Company has Two very experienced Electrical Engineers, which are CAD fluent, plus we have the latest version of AutoCAD and a wide format laser printer, which may print upto 36" wide media.
We propose to spend Eight Hours on site performing the actual Survey work.
Two people will do this survey.
The survey crew will identify all existing Electrical equipment - along with ratings, equipment types, free / used spaces and other relevant information.
They will also trace existing circuits via an Amprobe brand Circuit tracer, and label Circuit Directories (+ Panel Schedules) accordingly.
Along with circuit ID, they will read Amperage on feeders, heavy used circuits, and lighting circuits.
Additionally, they will identify outlets, hard wire points of connections, and building criteria - such as draft stops, framed offices, points of egress, structural data, existing conduit runs & trapezes.
Per the Utility stuff, verification and notation of size, number and type of Service Entrance Feeders, length from Transformer to Service UGPS, size of Transformer, and existing fault current.
Let's say for ease of understanding, the Utility's Transformer has nameplate information on it, and minimum SCA per service size is available in their ESR Manuals (Electrical Service Requirements).
We will say the Transformer is 13,200 V Primary Delta x 480Y/277V 3 Phase 4 Wire Wye Secondary - with a rating of 300 KVA, and an Impedance of 5.0 % Z.
The Service is rated at 800 Amps.
The Utility Company's ESR denotes a Fault Current level of 30,000 Amps at the Service Equipment, for 800 Amp, 480Y/277V 3 Phase 4 Wire Services.
All this data will be documented, then included to the Hard-Copy Plan Sets, as need be applied.
Second, I'd look at providing some 'infrastructure' with the job. Things like rows of strut, larger than needed (right now) trapezes, cable tray, etc.
Great.
We know the Customer is intent on planning for the future, so this is of high concern.
We shall install Conduit runs on the Trapeze system, so as not to exceed 50% of the maximum allowable design weight.
In other words, we build the trapezes to handle twice what we will put on them, so there will be some future capacity left over, and so the trapeze racks are not hazardous.
Per these trapeze racks, we need to brace them for seismic activity, which means "Kickers" and "Braces" mounted at given intervals.
Fortunately, our on-staff Engineers have experience for this, and the software necessary to plot out points of restraints, and the necessary materials to use.
Third, I'd invest in improving access. That mainly means providing a way to work at the ceiling level. Height apart, you often have something in the way of placing your ladder or lift ... and lift rental adds up.
We shall plan on renting at least One wide platform Scissor Lift, for the duration of the "High Work" - including the exterior and interior equipment makeup.
If Draft Stops are encountered, we will penetrate through them as described below:
* Drill holes in the Drywall (or Metal), no more than 1" larger than the size of Conduit passing through it - for sizes above 1-1/2",
* Drill hole of 1/2" larger than the conduit passing through it, for sizes 1-1/4" and less,
* Install trapeze racking on each side of the Draft Stop, within 36 inches of the partition,
* Patch or repair as necessary, any segment of the partition damaged by our Installation,
* Bring to the Customer's attention, any existing damage found during installation,
* Identify Draft Stop partitions on plans.
(BTW: Draft Stops are non combustible partitions, which are mounted at ceiling height in large open warehouse areas.
Please feel free to ask about Draft Stops if anyone does not know of them).
Fourth, I'd make a 'workshop' or 'office' area for me ... maybe atop the office area. Speaking of which ... I'd put down permanent decking over the office area. Straddling trusses costs time.
Not quite sure of what is being proposed here, maybe you could explain with details.
Finally, with the distances involved, I'd use BIG pipe, with large, deep pull cans maybe every 50 ft. This is to enable you to pull additional circuits in the same pipe later.
OK, here's a good design suggestion.
Let's all discuss the pros and cons of this approach.
For me, I would definitely go with oversized Conduit runs - along with some spare conduits, and keeping the number of Circuits to 6 maximum per run.
Of course, we may need to increase the conductor sizes for long runs, so that's an additional thought.
As to pull cans, I would suggest to place them strategically along the intended runs, in locations where they are easier to access; mounted nice and secure, and where they may eliminate a 90 - like in place of a 90.
FYI, here is some additional criteria, from the "Main Page":
Thanks for participating!
Fantasyland is a nice place to work - and one would certainly love to live there!
I chose the Project's location in Fantasyland - and the Heavenly Customer, so the discussions may be more widely accepted + easier to understand by all viewers and posters.
Having said this, let's address the items you stated:
Quote:
What about local ordinances and different adapted codes
Excellent item to post!
Being that I am in California, _MOST_ of the time, the Electrical Codes will be relevant to the CEC (California Electrical Code) - AKA Title 24, Part 3.
The "Model Code" for the CEC is the NEC.
We are currently on the 2007 CEC, Modeled from the 2005 NEC.
In Southern California, there are some local amendments, along with "listed preferences" - such as:
* Gray for 277V Grounded Neutral Conductors,
* Black, Red, Blue for 208Y/120V 3 Phase 4 Wire,
* Brown, Orange, Yellow for 480Y/277V 3 Phase 4 Wire,
* No Aluminum for sizes #2 and smaller,
* No NM Cable in Commercial installations,
* No Aluminum Grounding Electrode Conductors or Equipment Grounding Conductors.
City of LA has additional requirements.
I would like to toss around a few examples with people, and derive a fixed set of "Local Codes" to apply on our design scenarios.
My suggestions are to begin with the basics, as found in the 2005 NEC (I will include this to the first discussion thread tonight).
Quote:
Location cost factors would be an issue
Since our scenario project is located in Fantasyland, we will figure the project is somewhere on the Equator, yet still in USA.
There will be no snow, rain, wind, frost or extreme heat; and it is always the Vernal or Autumnal Equinox (12 hours daylight, 12 hours night).
Crews will commute no more than 15 miles one way, to get to the project.
Quote:
material cost is around 50% higher of the national average. With rising fuel costs, it will most certainly go up. Labor costs are 36%.
If possible, we could arrive at a National average - as determined by a consensus, or by NECA, and adjust it according to certain locations - such as yours.
Quote:
These higher averages means someone out there is running below averages which equates to more the just a few dollars different in the price.
These are exactly the things I want to discuss, as this will help shed light on the vast differences experienced across the Country.
One important note:
I plan to run takeoffs of an agreed upon (to be proposed) installation quote, through the estimating application at work, as to arrive at a given price, estimated hours, and material listing.
Would be doing that for each scenario discussion.
Prior to compiling the takeoff, everyone may contribute as to what will be included, used, paid, and such.
I would also like to draw up a few rough E sheets, and maybe some proposal documents, and add these to the thread.
Thanks for the message - hope to see you in the discussions!
Scott
We have the ball rolling now! Everyone, please toss some words in!
If you want me to begin the basic scenario, let me know. I will provide the scope and some relative details.
Thanks for contributing!!!
Scott
