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#80633 - 05/04/02 10:12 AM Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ?  
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,875
NY, USA
This is related to a question I read by Frank Cinker ( here ) asking about allowances made for Appliances that are incompatable with GFCI devices in 525.23(B)

My question is; What types of Appliances (Kitchen) would be incompatable with GFCIs and if they are known to exist, why is there no similar exception for them in 210.8(B)?

Maybe this could be some leverage that would help get 210.8(B) modified to allow receptacles dedicated to Refrigeration equipment to be on non-gfci protected circuits.

Comments?

How about a "Collective" proposal here to the 2005 NEC with substantiation pointing to existing allowances in 525.23(B)?

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 05-04-2002).]


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#80634 - 05/04/02 02:28 PM Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ?  
Bjarney  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,527
West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
OK, here's another one from the 'old bastard' perspective. IIRC, in the mid/late seventies, Hawaii IAEI folks were having a big problem enforcing the new outside GFCI mandate. It had been the long-standing custom there to locate washing machines out on the covered back porch. They found that washers could not go through a cycle without tripping the GFCI, apparently by EMI from the water solenoid. They rightfully took the NEC quite seriously, and were pretty frazzled over it.


#80635 - 05/05/02 07:43 AM Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ?  
pauluk  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
Norfolk, England
Bill,

We've had some problems in the U.K. since the 30mA whole-house GFIs started replacing the 100mA types.

The main problem has been with microwave ovens tripping on start-up, especially if there's already a few mA of leakage from other devices.


#80636 - 05/05/02 07:53 PM Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ?  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
well..... i see a loophole in hardwiring, as in pools..

( well someone had to say it....
[Linked Image]


#80637 - 05/06/02 08:08 PM Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ?  
motor-T  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 280
Girard, Ohio, USA
Bill:
Wouldnt they be able to say that only Counter-top receptacles need to be GFCI protection ? Also that 210.8 is for dwelling units.
and 525.23(B) would be considered commercial, I know in our small Town of Warren when they have festivals downtown, the local inspector goes nuts trying to get everyone to comply, although its a 3-day event he has to look at everything, and generally the whole area is a total mess, electrically that is.
-Mark-


#80638 - 05/06/02 08:52 PM Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ?  
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,875
NY, USA
Mark,

Yes, it could say that only countertop receptacles need the GFCI protection, but some substantiation for the proposed change is required. Someone already thinks that some refrigeration equip may be incompatible with GFCIs as (apparently) evidenced by the rules of 525.23(B).

Bill


#80639 - 05/07/02 06:18 AM Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ?  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
Bill,
Note the commentary after 210.8(B)(3)
( there is none after 525.23(B))
one would think the rationale would be reversed here, given the nature of carny wiring.....

anywho....similar language would seem politically correct for 210.8.....
[Linked Image]


(3) Kitchens


Section 210.8(B)(3) is new for the 2002 Code and requires all 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt receptacles in nondwelling-type kitchens to be GFCI protected. This requirement applies to each and every 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt kitchen receptacle, whether or not the receptacle serves countertop appliances.
Accident data related to electrical incidents in nondwelling kitchens reveal the presence of many hazards, including poorly maintained electrical apparatus, damaged electrical cords, wet floors, and employees without proper electrical safety training. Mandating some limited form of GFCI protection for high-hazard areas such as nondwelling kitchens should help prevent electrical accidents.



525.23(B)
(B) Appliance Receptacles. Receptacles supplying items, such as cooking and refrigeration equipment, that are incompatible with ground-fault circuit-interrupter devices shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.


#80640 - 05/22/02 06:32 AM Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ?  
Frank Cinker  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 311
Pennsylvania
Bill,

What Nick Sasso posted is probably the only way an Inspector could judge if the appliance was incompatible or not.
http://www.iaeifl.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000014#000005

Reality is another thing.

Frank


#80641 - 05/22/02 07:55 AM Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ?  
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,875
NY, USA
I recently attended an outside party where the caterers were having an electrical problem of some sort and I was asked to look into it. Two large coffee urns were instantly tripping the GFCI receptacles outside and in the garage when they were plugged in. I didn't get to examine them, but both appeared quite new and unaltered (?)

Has anyone seen this happen?
They worked fine when brought inside and plugged into a non-gfci'd outlet. My theorizing that something must be wrong with the coffee urns did not go over so well with the catering people.

Bill


#80642 - 05/22/02 08:46 AM Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ?  
Frank Cinker  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 311
Pennsylvania
I haven't yet. My first big test will be the July 4th Celebration which will be held at one of our large State Parks near the "three rivers" area. There will be many food stands as well as large tents that will require power. I plan to have my men provide GFCI protection for everything to comply with NEC 525.23.


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