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Posted By: Bill Addiss Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ? - 05/04/02 02:12 PM
This is related to a question I read by Frank Cinker ( here ) asking about allowances made for Appliances that are incompatable with GFCI devices in 525.23(B)

My question is; What types of Appliances (Kitchen) would be incompatable with GFCIs and if they are known to exist, why is there no similar exception for them in 210.8(B)?

Maybe this could be some leverage that would help get 210.8(B) modified to allow receptacles dedicated to Refrigeration equipment to be on non-gfci protected circuits.

Comments?

How about a "Collective" proposal here to the 2005 NEC with substantiation pointing to existing allowances in 525.23(B)?

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 05-04-2002).]
Posted By: Bjarney Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ? - 05/04/02 06:28 PM
OK, here's another one from the 'old bastard' perspective. IIRC, in the mid/late seventies, Hawaii IAEI folks were having a big problem enforcing the new outside GFCI mandate. It had been the long-standing custom there to locate washing machines out on the covered back porch. They found that washers could not go through a cycle without tripping the GFCI, apparently by EMI from the water solenoid. They rightfully took the NEC quite seriously, and were pretty frazzled over it.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ? - 05/05/02 11:43 AM
Bill,

We've had some problems in the U.K. since the 30mA whole-house GFIs started replacing the 100mA types.

The main problem has been with microwave ovens tripping on start-up, especially if there's already a few mA of leakage from other devices.
Posted By: sparky Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ? - 05/05/02 11:53 PM
well..... i see a loophole in hardwiring, as in pools..

( well someone had to say it....
[Linked Image]
Posted By: motor-T Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ? - 05/07/02 12:08 AM
Bill:
Wouldnt they be able to say that only Counter-top receptacles need to be GFCI protection ? Also that 210.8 is for dwelling units.
and 525.23(B) would be considered commercial, I know in our small Town of Warren when they have festivals downtown, the local inspector goes nuts trying to get everyone to comply, although its a 3-day event he has to look at everything, and generally the whole area is a total mess, electrically that is.
-Mark-
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ? - 05/07/02 12:52 AM
Mark,

Yes, it could say that only countertop receptacles need the GFCI protection, but some substantiation for the proposed change is required. Someone already thinks that some refrigeration equip may be incompatible with GFCIs as (apparently) evidenced by the rules of 525.23(B).

Bill
Posted By: sparky Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ? - 05/07/02 10:18 AM
Bill,
Note the commentary after 210.8(B)(3)
( there is none after 525.23(B))
one would think the rationale would be reversed here, given the nature of carny wiring.....

anywho....similar language would seem politically correct for 210.8.....
[Linked Image]


(3) Kitchens


Section 210.8(B)(3) is new for the 2002 Code and requires all 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt receptacles in nondwelling-type kitchens to be GFCI protected. This requirement applies to each and every 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt kitchen receptacle, whether or not the receptacle serves countertop appliances.
Accident data related to electrical incidents in nondwelling kitchens reveal the presence of many hazards, including poorly maintained electrical apparatus, damaged electrical cords, wet floors, and employees without proper electrical safety training. Mandating some limited form of GFCI protection for high-hazard areas such as nondwelling kitchens should help prevent electrical accidents.



525.23(B)
(B) Appliance Receptacles. Receptacles supplying items, such as cooking and refrigeration equipment, that are incompatible with ground-fault circuit-interrupter devices shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.
Bill,

What Nick Sasso posted is probably the only way an Inspector could judge if the appliance was incompatible or not.
http://www.iaeifl.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000014#000005

Reality is another thing.

Frank
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ? - 05/22/02 11:55 AM
I recently attended an outside party where the caterers were having an electrical problem of some sort and I was asked to look into it. Two large coffee urns were instantly tripping the GFCI receptacles outside and in the garage when they were plugged in. I didn't get to examine them, but both appeared quite new and unaltered (?)

Has anyone seen this happen?
They worked fine when brought inside and plugged into a non-gfci'd outlet. My theorizing that something must be wrong with the coffee urns did not go over so well with the catering people.

Bill
I haven't yet. My first big test will be the July 4th Celebration which will be held at one of our large State Parks near the "three rivers" area. There will be many food stands as well as large tents that will require power. I plan to have my men provide GFCI protection for everything to comply with NEC 525.23.
Posted By: Bjarney Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ? - 05/22/02 08:47 PM
Bill, were the urns fitted with equipment-grounding cords? In some cases metal-sheathed, mineral-filled, 'cal-rod' heaters are particularly maddening leakage wise. If there’s no grounding included in the line cord, then humans sometimes get to complete the circuit. Until a GFCI trips, the ground current can be uncomfortable for some.


[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 05-22-2002).]
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ? - 05/22/02 10:44 PM
Bjarney,

Yes, the urns had 3 prong plugs on them and they were pretty new looking. I was wondering if there might be a Ground to Neutral connection inside, but did not have any test equipment on hand.

Bill
Posted By: Bjarney Re: Appliances Incompatible with GFCIs ? - 05/23/02 06:35 PM
IIRC, cold "cal-rod" heaters can absorb moisture around their electrical terminals, and, until heatup, can be quite "leaky," GFCI-wise.
Bill,

Now I remember the "cal rod heaters" reply from my post some time ago.

From what I've read from Bjarney's post it's very possible some appliances are not "compatible".

Staying with NEC Article 525, an electrical inspector would actually have to be there at the job site making the decision. Or, as I think we can agree on, the electrician doing the job should provide GFCI protection and hope all goes well.

Frank
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