ECN Forum Forums Photo Discussion Forums Photos for General Discussion Locomotive pictures

Ray, just lovely pics!! Another few hours wasted drooling and ignoring 'er indoors wanting to work on the new house!
But, Oh for the simplicity of Steam! Light a bit of a fire, brew a mug of tea, get 150 psi plus in the boiler, [ polish the brass and sup tha' tea while tha' waits ]. Fat bloke, [in a proper uniform with an official hat], waves a green flag, open the regulator and were off with the delightful fragrance of steam, machine-oil and fire!
Forget the clouds of acrid smoke, the fogs, the pollution, the carcinogens, the appalling efficiency, the blackened cities, the ash, the embankment fires and the poor bugger shovelling 20 tons of coal into its maw every shift for a quid, it was simple, it worked and it was romantic! Diesel? Bah! Electric? interesting, but it ain't the same, is it now?

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=93749

Erie-Lackawanna and later NJ Transit used these things on the Summit/Morristown/Dover line until the mid-80ies. Ran on 3000 kVDC.

The system was them re-electrified at 25kVAC 60hz, which was to be the future voltage of the Northeast Corridor line into NY City. Unfortunately, the NE Corridor's voltage was never changed and stayed at 11kVAC, so the new multiple-unit trains
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=40993

couldn't run into NYC, only into Hoboken. So they're running locomotive-hauled trains into NY - unfortunately, the line has a stop every mile and the locos accelerate slower than the multiple-unit trains.

Speaking of steam, I was in Poland in 1996 and the train line from Warszawa to Krakow is electrified. Unfortunately, the electrification was down on the day that I took the train to Krakow, so we ended up being hauled by a steam engine for a good part of the trip. I know some steam was still used on commuter lines in western Poland as late as 2003 or 2004, but this was *main-line* service. On the way back, the trip took 2.5hr for 300km (about 185 miles). So avg speed was 74 mph, which is actually faster than most trains on the NE Corridor in the US!

-b.
-b.

[This message has been edited by bosozoku (edited 01-19-2006).]

Re; Posting of RODALCO in reference to 400hz motors & transformers.
Rebuttle. In the early development of electrification/electric traction of the Pennsylvania Railroad circa 1895-1968. That railroad in its hey day solved a lot of problems with an engineering co. Gibbs & Hill co. . There wher very unique problems at the beginning of electrification because no one else tested it other that small street railway companies with limited budgets. One big problem was the limited space locomotives had near the driving wheels. Yes I've seen and been under the belly of a GG-1 locomotive at the museum in Stausberg PA.It was interested to see twin/tandem 350HP traction motors hung through like a wheel barrow suspension. Tight fit. Those series commutator motors, I thought of compairing the size with a 100 HP 3 phase 60hz induction motor where I work.Those motors on the GG1 where not that much larger than the 60Hz 3 phase induction motor.
Now lets visit a book "Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad 1895-1968 by Michael Bezilla Through the Pennsylvania State University press, Chapter 3 [Alternating Current at Philadelphia] Page67 Stated as;
*******"American railway electrifications using alternating current had now standardized on 25 cycles. The lower the frequency, the smaller the series-commutator motor could be for a given horsepower output;that is, a motor of a particular size and weight operating at 25cycles had a higher horsepower rating than an identical one operating at 60 cycles. As the frequency increased, so did the dimesions of the motor, in order to maintain a specified horsepower. This relationship was of little importance for home or factory use. For railroads, it was vital. An electric locomotive had to pack as powerful motor as possible into a very restrictive space. In addition, railways using low-voltage d.c. sytems but relying on an a.c. generating and distribution system found that the lower the frequency of the alternating current, the more efficiently it could be converted to direct current."***************************
To conclude my findings on the matter, since I've never worked on aircraft wiring or on aircraft electric motors and equipment, I cannot visualize high horsepower slow RPM motors at 400hz. I would have to assume they are high RPM motors of the fractional HP type. I know a transformer at that frequency would have much less iron laminate. As a licensed Radio Amateur, I've built old style tube amplifiers associated operating transmitters. There are some coupling circuits that are used like isolating transformers except they do not have any iron laminated cores. So a 25 cycle transformer may be much larger and heavier than a 60hz counterpart of the same KVA ratings, but correct me in spite of what I have researched and seen, I may be wrong. Don't forget these locomotive motors where somewhat lower speed than the norm.They where also geared seperatly for passenger and freight. I have the complete shop manuals of the GG-1 series locomotives.
What I have found is that electric motor applications, wheather it be electric railways, Ships, Aircraft or industrial establishments, they are not all the same. They all have their unique niche.
Finally on those pictures of a three phase locomotive, don't forget the old Railroad tunnel under the Cascade Mountains in Washington State had a 3 Phase corner grounded delta system at 25hz @6,600volts. The locomotives had two old style street car trolley poles [wheel type], one for each of the phases, with extra insulators on the retreaver cord to disconnect the locomotive from the overhead. Heck, I think I would rather use a High voltage hookstick and rubber gloves just to be on the safe side, along with an arc blast suit.
I hope someone may agree with me.

Paula Walach-Industrial Electrician

Thanks Paula for your detailed reply and experience with the GG1 locomotives.
As far as frequency goes in the airforce all field equipment was fitted with 400Hz motors and transformers to reduce weight mainly compared with 50 or 60 Hz equipment.

The key here is series commutator motor instead of asynchronous motor.

I'm well aware of the limited space constraints for traction motors in electric locomotives, the reason I understand with the earlier railway systems is that sometimes dc motors were used on ac and that you get away with excessive losses in the solid/laminated steel yokes with a low frequency. A series dc motor is very powerfull for it's size and with additional forced cooling heat generated from extra load during starting could be dissipated more efficiently.
Also sparking was reduced with lower frequency and interpoles fitted between the normal field windings.
Electric Locomotives are a very interesting topic and good to have a discussion about.
Kind regards Raymond

A good design of loco has to include the mechanical arrangements as well as arriving at a good electrical system. Old Maud.[see link in an earlier post, this thread], was Engineer Batchelder's attempt to have a gearless design [= low friction], with the motor windings on the driving axle, an idea tried by the C&SR a few years earlier with limited success. A stunning adaptation and improvement of the Brit idea, much less complex and with a performance better than all its contemporary steam locos, but..
[there's always a but!]... the unsprung weight of this heavy drive-axle led to complaints of Old Maud "pounding the rails". Here's the rub; ac motors are even bigger and heavier than a comparible dc motor; unsprung they can damage the track. Sprung and we're back to a complex drive arrangement, [= more friction losses], to accomodate a suspension. Getting the vibration and stress levels wrong was highlighted in 2003. 30 passengers were injured when a London Underground unit's motor fell off and derailed the train. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2694361.stm

Alan

To Ray , Allen et al Electrical contractor net.
Thank you very much for the reply back. I was about to come back on this topic again to explain the stark differences between Series commutator wound type motors and asynchronous motors. Like I said about the secific applications. I think it would be impractical if a series commutator type motor of 385 HP would be made at 400hz. If made it would probably be huge! And I'm going to correct myself a little bit, that I had mentioned that the GG-1 had 350HP motors. Last night I looked at the GG-1 series locomotives shop manuals and to my little surprise they had 385HP series commutator twin arrangement on one axle through a geared Quill. Their where a total of 12 of these motors. In it's time of hey day, these machines where the oppulance of the rails. They where nice machines/motors. Some day I would like to teach the trade based on some of these old technologies with the electric railway industry as my basis as the originality of the electrical trade for my teaching.
Predisessors of the GG-1, such as the old syle Baldwin box cab motors had third rail pickup shoes so when they reached the end of the 25hz 11KV territory just before Grand Central terminal in New York City.
They would make a painless change over from 25Hz to 650 volt DC. Yes, with those type of motors, you could get away with operating on either type of power.
Finally I have to say is that what I find here in the USA is that there is no interest in any form of electric railway technology. Out of 20 people in the electrical departmnet where I work, people could care less about electric mass transit. I'm the only one in my departmnet that commutes in using rail then pedal bike intermodally speaking. This is America, addicted to the automobile in the same fashion as Cocaine. If you could bring one of those GG-1 locomtives to a trade school for teaching, the kids would probably end up throwing rocks at it. The teachers themselves would probably not know whats under the hood of the associated electrical gear and it's uniqueness on distributing that 25Hz power through out that locomotive.
Its a crying shame the electric railway industry in America has become so technically retarded.
So there you have it. "Live to drive a car or die" That is the epitamy of travel here in the USA.

Paula Walach

[This message has been edited by Paula Walach (edited 01-20-2006).]

Thanks Paula.
Alan

[This message has been edited by Alan Belson (edited 01-21-2006).]

Thanks Paula for your detailed reply.
These GG-1 locomotives were masterpieces for it's time and I regret never have seen them at work or travelled behind one of them.
I work in the POCO utility industry on the network and in substations, and same here in New Zealand no one cares much about electric or diesel electric traction from the railways. Some are into steam but electric seems not to interest too many.
I think that electric locomotives are fascinating with their designs and different approaches to traction, especially over the last 100 years or so.
The way traction is done via quill drive, büchli drive, gears and jackrods, or monomotor bogies which the French have used on the Alsthom locomotives is a very smart system and even allows for a gear change when the loco is stationary to allowe for freight or passenger option.
Then there is a lot of electrical control equipment and auxillaries which makes it a great topic to read and talk about.
Same applies to diesel electrics. "powerstation on wheels" Big V 12, V16 or bigger diesels 2 and 4 stroke and a generator or alternator to furnish the traction motors.
Then of course the different traction systems DC , AC , 1Ø and 3Ø, and low frequencies wheater direct or via rotary or solid state converter stations. OH or 3rd rail. Interesting how to sort matters like passing points and crossings without shorting out and or stalling a train.
Hopefully we can keep this topic alive at ECN. there seem to be some train buffs around.
BTW: in New Zealand we use mostly diesel electric traction, about 400 kms is 25000 Volts 50 Hz 1Ø on the main trunk.
By Wellington there is 1500 Volts DC in use for the suburban network. ( about 50 kms radius ).
Kind regards
Ray

I almost got a job on the Erie Lacawanna (E-L)back in the 60's. My dad ( who worked 35 years for the E-L) talked me out of it. The rail roads weren't doing that well back then. My grandfather was an electrician on the E-L back in the 20's. I was going to join the E-L and change over those electric lines. They were 13,000 Volt Dc and they were changing over to 33,000 Volt AC. ( I believe) Instead I got a job in an alarm company, then to an electrical contractor, then my own business. Funny thing is that my ex-Sister in law and nephew got jobs working on the E-L. She is a conductor and he is an electrician working on the electric lines from Dover to Montclair.

During summer I'll have the chance to work at the nostalgia department of the Austrian Federal Railways. Their oldest electric locos date from around 1900. I guess it'll be a lot of fun working on those old machines. The mechanic part was much more important back then. One of our teachers said 60 years ago a railway motorcar was 60% mechanic work and 40% electrical engineering. Nowadays it's 30% mechanic and 70% electronics.

Just for info... the Austrian 15kV 16 2/3 Hz grid still completely runs off their own power plants as well as _huge_ (think MVA range) rotating inverters from 50 Hz!