ECN Forum
Posted By: pauluk Locomotive pictures - 04/06/05 11:48 AM
Thanks to Alan Belson for sending this picture.

Alan's comments below are copied from the thread which prompted this posting, and the first part refers to the modern trains used in the Channel Tunnel linking England and France.

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The locos run on 25kv ac single phase, one OH wire, neutral to a rail, with literally TONS (thousands) of small fan-cooled solid state triacs or diodes on board coupled to transformers. These pull up to 12,000KW. Not only will this allow three phase asynchronous motors (Eurostar) or 3 ph synchronous motors (type 92 freight) to be used, but the system copes with 50hz, 16.66hz, and DC voltages from 750-1500 and all stations in between using retractable shoes to pick up 3RD rail DC, if required, in all the various EU state railway (railroad) systems. I thought, Neat!!

Then I found in an old book I have, published in 1926, a photo of a 3-coupled overhead pantograph electric loco of 270,300lb drawbar pull running on 11,000v single phase, with 3-phase motors running through a rotary phase-converter, all up weight 570 tons. It is absolutely massive, and makes Mallard look like a tea-trolley. Made by the Westinghouse Electric & Manufacturing Co. of America. At which time, of course, a poor old British fireman had to shovel over 20 tons of coal into a firebox between London and Edinborough.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Paula Walach Re: Locomotive pictures - 04/08/05 02:34 AM
This is the best illustration of what electric power can do. Especially in electric railway transportation which does not exist too much in this country. But if you went to Europe or Asia, this would be the norm. As for being an industrial electrician, my colleages, fellow workers, never seen much of electric locomotives, electric light rail, ultra highspeed electric rail(that is a passenger train with speeds in excess of 150mph or even over 200mph like in France or Japan repectivly. They are just not interested in it. I have a vivid interest in it because,***REMOVED*** The sad part about it is their are no engineering schools in this country, best to my knowledge that offer courses in electric railway engineering as a specific. And as far as that old "Virginian" Loco, I have books on the Virginia Railroad. Up until the late 1950s early 1960s That loco worked the main line from Roanoake Va to Mullens West Virginia of about 134miles under the catenary overhead wire power of 11,000volts @ 25 hz . The lower the frequency the better for power, that is on some locos you can fit a smaller motor at 25hz than at 60hz the same HP. On a locomotive or multiple unit type train you had limited space to contend with. Also a competing railroad that almost ran along side of it, the Norfolk & Western had similar system except only about 50 miles, because the steam locomotives could not handle the tunnels and steep grades. The electrics where the best and the most efficient even in comparison to todays modern diesel locomotives.
On a safety note I have read about some shop people working on those old electric locos in which a few shop personel got electricuted. One of those companies Virginian or Norfolk & Western ? had a policy of LOTTO lock down and ground out the Pantograph, which is the sissor like contraption on the roof to collect power. The company that did not have the lock out policy of that pantograph had a few deaths of shop personel. This is probably the origins of tag out lock out. As for the history of electric railways, its origins was the forefront of todays modern industrial pilot controls to all kind of automations and power distributions. Industrial pilot control was contibuted by inventor Frank Julian Sprague,circa 1888 when he was perfecting the speed control of Direct current motors for electric streetcars in the city of Richmond Virgina. Mr. Sprague was Thomas Edison's right had man.
On a final note on the matter of electric railway rolling stock, our National Electric Code up until the late 1920s early 1930s did cover on board car wiring especially with passenger street cars. Yes, some of them had conduit runs with NEC compliance installation at the time circa 1927 according to an old electric railway engineering book I have! Except this book does not have all the power electronics of todays modern electric locomotives.
It facinates me.
Paula Walach

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-13-2006).]
Posted By: bensonelectric Re: Locomotive pictures - 04/08/05 04:11 AM
[Linked Image from images.nycsubway.org]

This is the light rail locomotive system we have here in town, it is very similar to the above locomotive. If i remember, each car is 55 tons, and the HV pickup is 15,000 volts. Its a nice public transportation system

Visit this site for more info: http://world.nycsubway.org/us/portland/max.html
Posted By: pauluk Re: Locomotive pictures - 04/08/05 01:18 PM
Paula, BensonElectric,

Welcome to ECN. [Linked Image]

Here in England, electric traction has made something of a comeback in new Metro "tram" (street car) systems. It's rather ironic when you consider that the original tram systems in many of the larger cities were torn out decades ago. I'm particularly fascinated by the old systems, and we're fortunate in having a few which have been preserved here, such as the Volk's Railway in Brighton, the Seaton tramway in Devon, and the famous Blackpool trams.

On regular trains, the routes from London down to the south coast (commuter country) are 3rd-rail electric, while several of the longer-distance mainlines running northward have been electrified (25kV overhead) over the years. And of course, electric traction has been used on the London Underground (subway system) for over a century.
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Locomotive pictures - 04/08/05 07:45 PM
Some years ago London Transport, who run the Underground system, were approached by a team of VPs from a Metro Corporation, I think from Japan, anxious to sell a retro-fit multi-million £ regenerative-braking system to the Underground trains. They were politely informed that the Underground had fitted regenerative braking from inception, 100 years earlier. The system had never cost one penny in maintenance charges or capital repayments for a century, it had cost practically nothing to build and it was nearly 100% efficient. The designers had simply built all the stations 10 feet higher than the rest of the track! Trains coast uphill to stop, and get a downhill boost as they leave. Don't Work Hard, Work Smart!
Alan
Posted By: bensonelectric Re: Locomotive pictures - 04/12/05 04:42 AM
I live in Portland Oregon USA, and ride this train daily to work. Its really cool, fast, quiet and efficient. Plus its only 1.35 for a ticket. Not a bad deal for 70 someodd miles of track.
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Locomotive pictures - 04/12/05 08:28 PM
bensonelectric.
Max/trimet is a fine transport system, serving Portland well, reducing pollution, attracting investment and creating 2600 jobs, among other attributes. It isn't economically viable in the 'business' sense & never was intended to be- it's a Public Service, Public Funded- a niche market. Your $1.35 ticket only covers 20% of the actual operating cost, taxpayers pick up the rest; fine in context to its stated aims. The Channel Tunnel (the American Society of Civil Engineers called it "One of the Seven Wonders of the Modern World") is funded soley by ticket sales. Went on the web earlier, (it's night here now), - quote was US$480 return, car+2 passengers tomorrow- & that'll be $800 by mid-summer- for a 33 mile return trip. Yet just today the Tunnels' debt, a staggering US$11,800 million is being "re-structured"- ie the shareholders' just lost their shirts.
All this, with 30 million (total all routes)passenger crossings per year- that's 25% of the total populations of France and the UK combined, so no lack of business.
As I said in my previous post- transport is never profitable for long.
Alan
Posted By: RODALCO Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/12/06 08:37 AM
Don't forget the big GG1's used on the Pennsylvania railroad passenger services.
These electric loco's served for about 50 years ( 2 CO CO 2 ). 11 kV 25 Hz.

The Milwauky railway had also some interesting electric loco's with a very high tractive bipolar motor design, i read about, cant find the book at the moment.

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The lower the frequency the better for power, that is on some locos you can fit a smaller motor at 25hz than at 60hz the same HP. On a locomotive or multiple unit type train you had limited space to contend with.

Paula, I think that you got the frequency data wrong. The lower frequencies like 16 2/3 and 25 Hz were used in the earlier AC traction days when sparking at the commutators was a big problem in the motor design.
Now 50 or 60 Hz is not a problem anymore because designs have improved and even 3 phase is available via special converters built into the locomotives , which take 1Ø from the grid and via thyristors and dc bus can be converted to 3Ø for brushless asynchronous traction motors.

In the airforce 400 Hz is used, In general the higher the frequency the more compact the motors and transformers hence less weight.

Another 3 coupled units were used in Sweden
Dm3 1-D+D+D-1 used on the iron ore line. 15000 Volts 16 2/3 Herz with Jack rods on the big traction wheels.

I see if I can scan some piccies in from these loco's. I'm an electric and diesel loco fan too. [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]
Posted By: yaktx Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/13/06 02:41 AM
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In the airforce 400 Hz is used, In general the higher the frequency the more compact the motors and transformers hence less weight.

Commercial aircraft too. That incessant high-pitched whine that continues even after they shut off the engines is 400Hz transformer hum.

25Hz was not used only in rail service. Early industrial systems used 25 Hz because many applications called for a slower RPM motor. There is a fascinating story about how 25Hz came to be a standard in the US.

Early Westinghouse (pre-Tesla) equipment was 133Hz single-phase. Tesla's designs were all 60Hz and so superior that Westinghouse abandoned previous designs. Industrial power called for low frequencies due to the demand for low motor speeds, but these frequencies were not suitable for incandescent lighting because they caused lamps to flicker.

Tesla proposed 60Hz for lighting and 30Hz for power, but during the design stage of the Niagara Falls power project, there was a lack of communication between the mechanical and electrical engineers. It seems the turbines had already been ordered, with a design RPM not suitable for 30Hz. The power system was changed to 25Hz, and since Niagara was such a large project, 25Hz became the standard.

It would really make much more sense to have 30&60, or 25&50, since two alternators with different numbers of poles could then be driven by the same shaft.

25Hz power systems become more scarce by the year.
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/13/06 09:30 AM
I didn't know that Alan (Alan Belson) was a fellow Railfan! Cool!!! [Linked Image]
Like the "Engineer" references, too!

Hats off to the other Railfans in this thread!

Scott35
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/13/06 08:20 PM
All Electricrailfans;-


[should be]
http://alfredbarten.com/oldmaud3.html

Want more 'leccy trains? Watch this space!

Alan

edit web address.

[This message has been edited by Alan Belson (edited 01-13-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Alan Belson (edited 01-13-2006).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/13/06 09:15 PM
It's no doubt much bigger, but that loco reminds me of the old Austrian 1670, which is about the same age.
That was a nice loco... 15kV 16 2/3 Hz overhead power, transformer with various taps for speed control and auxiliary power, huge solid contactors...

At the company we don't lock out the pantograph, but we switch off, lock out and ground the catenary of the track with the car we're working on. All ladders being used are grounded _and_ ground the catenary separately too. That seems to be a fairly safe arrangement.

I once had the fun of painting the roof of a historic loco for example.

www.railfaneurope.net is quite a nice site with pictures.
Posted By: Radar Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/14/06 05:03 AM
Where I work we run light rail trains that are overhead fed and heavy rail subway trains that are 3rd rail fed, and all of it runs on 750VDC. I take it by reading the posts above that this is unusual. These were all built within the last 15 years, most of it within the last 10. We have traction power stations every 2 to 3 miles or so.

Radar
Posted By: RODALCO Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/14/06 07:32 AM
Thanks for that link Texas Ranger
Posted By: pauluk Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/14/06 04:07 PM
More from Alan:

[Linked Image]

Click for larger image

"An early 'Swiss Federal Railways' 4-6-2 electric loco., date unknown, 1920? 15000 volts single phase ac, overhead supply at 16.66 hertz. Speed 56mph with 480 tons drawbar pull, with 2 series-compensated motors by Derlikon. Note the use of connecting rods on the six driven wheels, as in steam practice, and no money wasted on frivolities like covers!

DC series motors are practically perfect for traction in every respect, and were used extensively by the London Underground [600vdc] & in tramwork. Transmission of power over any great distance favored ac motors. Even when the voltage was pumped up to 1500vdc [live rail], or 3000vdc [overhead], ac offered lower overall asset compexity and capital/running costs over long distance routes, even with the poor starting performance. Polyphase ac traction was not practical until solid state switching devices became available, due to pantograph complexity. All motor design for traction is dominated by the need for variable speed, so synchronous motors are out. AC motors are, in fact, not wholly suitable for traction conditions- even 3-phase induction motors are primarily a constant speed type. The single phase motors used were therefore usually of the dc commutator type, with brushes on every pole and fitted with interpoles.

Now, simple dc motors [with field windings] rotate in the same direction, whichever way they happen to be connected to the dc system, [ field and armature currents are simultaneously reversed]. If a series dc type motor be supplied with ac of low periodicity, say 15-25 hz, it will duly operate in the same direction. This is why low hz was required. Field and armature irons must be laminated, and air gaps kept as small as possible to minimise leakage, which [in the ac case] affects the power factor. Even so, a motor like this will have a poor power-factor, and the general methods used to improve performance were; to have resistance strips between armature conductors and commutator segments; to introduce commutating and compensating windings; by distributed series windings carried in slots on the inner perifery of the stator; to run with a weaker field than in dc practice; and just to make the motors bigger! Even with all this refinement, starting vibration, noise and pulsation of torque was still inferior to dc."

-------------------------------------------

[Linked Image]

Click for larger image

"A typical early 600vdc electric locomotive used on certain sections of the London Underground. This is # 12, so it came from the second batch of locos built by The British Westinghouse Company Ltd, and was photographed some time after 1905. #1 thro' #10 were of similar general form - Ordered 1904, delivered 1905, weight 50 tons, 4 x 200 hp motors. Bodies and bogies by Metropolotan Amalgamated of Birmingham England, and electrical equipment by British Westinghouse. This type all seem to have all been scrapped in 1922, when they were replaced by 'Metropolitan Vickers' locos. "

-Alan



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 01-14-2006).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/14/06 10:49 PM
No, 750V DC is not at all uncommon for subway and light rail systems. In fact almost all subway systems of the world operate on 600-1500V DC either 3rd rail or overhead.

Long-distance lines in Austria never used anything but high-voltage AC.
Posted By: RODALCO Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/15/06 11:34 AM
I have read in an old railway book that after the second world war trials were done in Northern Italy with 3Ø power at 3000 Volts AC.
There were 2 overhead catenary wires, and the rails were the 3rd phase and were grounded. This system was used for quite a few years after it was abandoned and 3000 Volts DC was adopted to harmonise with the rest of Italy which uses 3000 V dc.

It must have been an absolute nightmare at points to avoid shorting out the overhead supply. 2 pantographs were used for power collection.
Also a limited section of speeds were available by changing pole pairs over.

I see if I can find the book or get some more info on gooogle.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/15/06 02:41 PM
Another pic from Alan:

[Linked Image]

Click for larger image

"This is a Metropolitan Railway Underground loco, #8 of the first batch, taken I think at Neasden Sheds[?]. This must be well after the construction date of '05, as she looks well used. Is that worker about to do a pas de deux?! Sorry about the quality of the photo, it's got pretty creased." -Alan
Posted By: pauluk Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/18/06 01:34 PM
Thanks to RODALCO for the following photo of a Northern Italian railways 3 phase locomotive.

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This one is hauling a dc EMU train. Note the pantographs are down and continuous contact strip. The 3Ø loco has 2 separate contact strips.

[Linked Image]

Click for full-size image
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In Northern Italy the 3 phase system was adopted around 1928 and lasted till the early 1970's when it was standardised to 3000 Volts dc, and its unfortunate demise.

I give you the link as well to see some more interesting photo's of these great machines.
http://www.photorail.com/phr1-leFS/e432.htm

Class: E 432
3Ø at 3600 Volts 16.667 Hz
Max. output: 2200 kW. supplied by 2 x 1100 kW synchronous traction motors.
Drive via gears and jackrods.
Speed control was achieved by pole changing of the motorwindings via resistors and the 2 different motors itself
Speeds: 37.5 - 50 - 75 - 100 km/h.
Total weight 94 Tons, Adhesive weight 71 Tons.
1 D 1 wheel arrangement.
Total production 40 locomotives.

In normal use 2 pantographs are up to avoid stalling a train at low speeds across the isolated gaps in the 2 phases near points and railway yards. This 3Ø system originally was put in place around 1910 when the class 550 locomotives where used as the E 432 predecessors.

Source: "The great book of trains" and google class E432.




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 01-18-2006).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/18/06 09:04 PM
Attempts like this have been made in several European countries around 1900, but this is the only one I ever saw a clear picture of, and probably the only one that has been in service for such a long period of time.
Having two pantographs up is usually avoided here out of fear the power line might start to oscillate and damage the second pantograph.

Traction voltages are a nightmare around Europe... I think anything from 500-3000V DC and 1500V-25000V AC at 16 2/3 and 50 Hz are currently used. Take Austria alone... Vienna streetcar (tram) is 650V DC overhead supply. Vienna Subway is 750V DC 3rd rail (4 lines) or overhead (1 line). Suburban light rail to Baden (streetcar-like local railway) is inside Vienna on 650V tram supply, for a short section of track on 750V subway and on it's own track outside Vienna on 950V DC. The cars are quite lame inside Vienna...
Long-distance service is solely 15000V @16.7 Hz (nominal, actually it's a rounded 16 2/3 Hz), whereas smaller local lines often operate on 1200 or 1500 V DC overhead. German and Swiss long distance are the same as Austria (not sure about Switzerland), so that's not such a big problem. Hungary is 25000V 50 Hz though, System #2. Italy is 1500 or 3000V DC. Don't know about Czech Republic, Slovakia and Slovenia.

The old Vienna metro (until 1983) had trains of up to nine short 2-axle cars, multi-unit operation with three motorcars! Built in 154-1961, using most of the mechanical parts from the old 1925 cars, boosting a maximum speed of 40km per hour...
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/18/06 11:32 PM
Ray, just lovely pics!! Another few hours wasted drooling and ignoring 'er indoors wanting to work on the new house!
But, Oh for the simplicity of Steam! Light a bit of a fire, brew a mug of tea, get 150 psi plus in the boiler, [ polish the brass and sup tha' tea while tha' waits ]. Fat bloke, [in a proper uniform with an official hat], waves a green flag, open the regulator and were off with the delightful fragrance of steam, machine-oil and fire!
Forget the clouds of acrid smoke, the fogs, the pollution, the carcinogens, the appalling efficiency, the blackened cities, the ash, the embankment fires and the poor bugger shovelling 20 tons of coal into its maw every shift for a quid, it was simple, it worked and it was romantic! Diesel? Bah! Electric? interesting, but it ain't the same, is it now?
Posted By: bosozoku Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/19/06 04:04 PM
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=93749

Erie-Lackawanna and later NJ Transit used these things on the Summit/Morristown/Dover line until the mid-80ies. Ran on 3000 kVDC.

The system was them re-electrified at 25kVAC 60hz, which was to be the future voltage of the Northeast Corridor line into NY City. Unfortunately, the NE Corridor's voltage was never changed and stayed at 11kVAC, so the new multiple-unit trains
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=40993

couldn't run into NYC, only into Hoboken. So they're running locomotive-hauled trains into NY - unfortunately, the line has a stop every mile and the locos accelerate slower than the multiple-unit trains.

Speaking of steam, I was in Poland in 1996 and the train line from Warszawa to Krakow is electrified. Unfortunately, the electrification was down on the day that I took the train to Krakow, so we ended up being hauled by a steam engine for a good part of the trip. I know some steam was still used on commuter lines in western Poland as late as 2003 or 2004, but this was *main-line* service. On the way back, the trip took 2.5hr for 300km (about 185 miles). So avg speed was 74 mph, which is actually faster than most trains on the NE Corridor in the US!

-b.
-b.

[This message has been edited by bosozoku (edited 01-19-2006).]
Posted By: Paula Walach Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/20/06 02:06 AM
Re; Posting of RODALCO in reference to 400hz motors & transformers.
Rebuttle. In the early development of electrification/electric traction of the Pennsylvania Railroad circa 1895-1968. That railroad in its hey day solved a lot of problems with an engineering co. Gibbs & Hill co. . There wher very unique problems at the beginning of electrification because no one else tested it other that small street railway companies with limited budgets. One big problem was the limited space locomotives had near the driving wheels. Yes I've seen and been under the belly of a GG-1 locomotive at the museum in Stausberg PA.It was interested to see twin/tandem 350HP traction motors hung through like a wheel barrow suspension. Tight fit. Those series commutator motors, I thought of compairing the size with a 100 HP 3 phase 60hz induction motor where I work.Those motors on the GG1 where not that much larger than the 60Hz 3 phase induction motor.
Now lets visit a book "Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad 1895-1968 by Michael Bezilla Through the Pennsylvania State University press, Chapter 3 [Alternating Current at Philadelphia] Page67 Stated as;
*******"American railway electrifications using alternating current had now standardized on 25 cycles. The lower the frequency, the smaller the series-commutator motor could be for a given horsepower output;that is, a motor of a particular size and weight operating at 25cycles had a higher horsepower rating than an identical one operating at 60 cycles. As the frequency increased, so did the dimesions of the motor, in order to maintain a specified horsepower. This relationship was of little importance for home or factory use. For railroads, it was vital. An electric locomotive had to pack as powerful motor as possible into a very restrictive space. In addition, railways using low-voltage d.c. sytems but relying on an a.c. generating and distribution system found that the lower the frequency of the alternating current, the more efficiently it could be converted to direct current."***************************
To conclude my findings on the matter, since I've never worked on aircraft wiring or on aircraft electric motors and equipment, I cannot visualize high horsepower slow RPM motors at 400hz. I would have to assume they are high RPM motors of the fractional HP type. I know a transformer at that frequency would have much less iron laminate. As a licensed Radio Amateur, I've built old style tube amplifiers associated operating transmitters. There are some coupling circuits that are used like isolating transformers except they do not have any iron laminated cores. So a 25 cycle transformer may be much larger and heavier than a 60hz counterpart of the same KVA ratings, but correct me in spite of what I have researched and seen, I may be wrong. Don't forget these locomotive motors where somewhat lower speed than the norm.They where also geared seperatly for passenger and freight. I have the complete shop manuals of the GG-1 series locomotives.
What I have found is that electric motor applications, wheather it be electric railways, Ships, Aircraft or industrial establishments, they are not all the same. They all have their unique niche.
Finally on those pictures of a three phase locomotive, don't forget the old Railroad tunnel under the Cascade Mountains in Washington State had a 3 Phase corner grounded delta system at 25hz @6,600volts. The locomotives had two old style street car trolley poles [wheel type], one for each of the phases, with extra insulators on the retreaver cord to disconnect the locomotive from the overhead. Heck, I think I would rather use a High voltage hookstick and rubber gloves just to be on the safe side, along with an arc blast suit.
I hope someone may agree with me.

Paula Walach-Industrial Electrician
Posted By: RODALCO Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/20/06 07:46 AM
Thanks Paula for your detailed reply and experience with the GG1 locomotives.
As far as frequency goes in the airforce all field equipment was fitted with 400Hz motors and transformers to reduce weight mainly compared with 50 or 60 Hz equipment.

The key here is series commutator motor instead of asynchronous motor.

I'm well aware of the limited space constraints for traction motors in electric locomotives, the reason I understand with the earlier railway systems is that sometimes dc motors were used on ac and that you get away with excessive losses in the solid/laminated steel yokes with a low frequency. A series dc motor is very powerfull for it's size and with additional forced cooling heat generated from extra load during starting could be dissipated more efficiently.
Also sparking was reduced with lower frequency and interpoles fitted between the normal field windings.
Electric Locomotives are a very interesting topic and good to have a discussion about.
Kind regards Raymond
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/20/06 12:26 PM
A good design of loco has to include the mechanical arrangements as well as arriving at a good electrical system. Old Maud.[see link in an earlier post, this thread], was Engineer Batchelder's attempt to have a gearless design [= low friction], with the motor windings on the driving axle, an idea tried by the C&SR a few years earlier with limited success. A stunning adaptation and improvement of the Brit idea, much less complex and with a performance better than all its contemporary steam locos, but..
[there's always a but!]... the unsprung weight of this heavy drive-axle led to complaints of Old Maud "pounding the rails". Here's the rub; ac motors are even bigger and heavier than a comparible dc motor; unsprung they can damage the track. Sprung and we're back to a complex drive arrangement, [= more friction losses], to accomodate a suspension. Getting the vibration and stress levels wrong was highlighted in 2003. 30 passengers were injured when a London Underground unit's motor fell off and derailed the train. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2694361.stm

Alan
Posted By: Paula Walach Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/20/06 09:56 PM
To Ray , Allen et al Electrical contractor net.
Thank you very much for the reply back. I was about to come back on this topic again to explain the stark differences between Series commutator wound type motors and asynchronous motors. Like I said about the secific applications. I think it would be impractical if a series commutator type motor of 385 HP would be made at 400hz. If made it would probably be huge! And I'm going to correct myself a little bit, that I had mentioned that the GG-1 had 350HP motors. Last night I looked at the GG-1 series locomotives shop manuals and to my little surprise they had 385HP series commutator twin arrangement on one axle through a geared Quill. Their where a total of 12 of these motors. In it's time of hey day, these machines where the oppulance of the rails. They where nice machines/motors. Some day I would like to teach the trade based on some of these old technologies with the electric railway industry as my basis as the originality of the electrical trade for my teaching.
Predisessors of the GG-1, such as the old syle Baldwin box cab motors had third rail pickup shoes so when they reached the end of the 25hz 11KV territory just before Grand Central terminal in New York City.
They would make a painless change over from 25Hz to 650 volt DC. Yes, with those type of motors, you could get away with operating on either type of power.
Finally I have to say is that what I find here in the USA is that there is no interest in any form of electric railway technology. Out of 20 people in the electrical departmnet where I work, people could care less about electric mass transit. I'm the only one in my departmnet that commutes in using rail then pedal bike intermodally speaking. This is America, addicted to the automobile in the same fashion as Cocaine. If you could bring one of those GG-1 locomtives to a trade school for teaching, the kids would probably end up throwing rocks at it. The teachers themselves would probably not know whats under the hood of the associated electrical gear and it's uniqueness on distributing that 25Hz power through out that locomotive.
Its a crying shame the electric railway industry in America has become so technically retarded.
So there you have it. "Live to drive a car or die" That is the epitamy of travel here in the USA.

Paula Walach

[This message has been edited by Paula Walach (edited 01-20-2006).]
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/20/06 10:50 PM
Thanks Paula.
Alan

[This message has been edited by Alan Belson (edited 01-21-2006).]
Posted By: RODALCO Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/22/06 10:06 AM
Thanks Paula for your detailed reply.
These GG-1 locomotives were masterpieces for it's time and I regret never have seen them at work or travelled behind one of them.
I work in the POCO utility industry on the network and in substations, and same here in New Zealand no one cares much about electric or diesel electric traction from the railways. Some are into steam but electric seems not to interest too many.
I think that electric locomotives are fascinating with their designs and different approaches to traction, especially over the last 100 years or so.
The way traction is done via quill drive, büchli drive, gears and jackrods, or monomotor bogies which the French have used on the Alsthom locomotives is a very smart system and even allows for a gear change when the loco is stationary to allowe for freight or passenger option.
Then there is a lot of electrical control equipment and auxillaries which makes it a great topic to read and talk about.
Same applies to diesel electrics. "powerstation on wheels" Big V 12, V16 or bigger diesels 2 and 4 stroke and a generator or alternator to furnish the traction motors.
Then of course the different traction systems DC , AC , 1Ø and 3Ø, and low frequencies wheater direct or via rotary or solid state converter stations. OH or 3rd rail. Interesting how to sort matters like passing points and crossings without shorting out and or stalling a train.
Hopefully we can keep this topic alive at ECN. there seem to be some train buffs around. [Linked Image]
BTW: in New Zealand we use mostly diesel electric traction, about 400 kms is 25000 Volts 50 Hz 1Ø on the main trunk.
By Wellington there is 1500 Volts DC in use for the suburban network. ( about 50 kms radius ).
Kind regards
Ray
Posted By: harold endean Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/22/06 07:22 PM
I almost got a job on the Erie Lacawanna (E-L)back in the 60's. My dad ( who worked 35 years for the E-L) talked me out of it. The rail roads weren't doing that well back then. My grandfather was an electrician on the E-L back in the 20's. I was going to join the E-L and change over those electric lines. They were 13,000 Volt Dc and they were changing over to 33,000 Volt AC. ( I believe) Instead I got a job in an alarm company, then to an electrical contractor, then my own business. Funny thing is that my ex-Sister in law and nephew got jobs working on the E-L. She is a conductor and he is an electrician working on the electric lines from Dover to Montclair.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Locomotive pictures - 01/23/06 01:31 PM
During summer I'll have the chance to work at the nostalgia department of the Austrian Federal Railways. Their oldest electric locos date from around 1900. I guess it'll be a lot of fun working on those old machines. The mechanic part was much more important back then. One of our teachers said 60 years ago a railway motorcar was 60% mechanic work and 40% electrical engineering. Nowadays it's 30% mechanic and 70% electronics.

Just for info... the Austrian 15kV 16 2/3 Hz grid still completely runs off their own power plants as well as _huge_ (think MVA range) rotating inverters from 50 Hz!
Posted By: Trainwire Re: Locomotive pictures - 02/17/06 05:02 PM
Hi All,

Returning after a long hiatus, and I find you all mucking around in my corner.

Romance of steam? Oh puleeze. Ever run one of those things on a 100 degree August day? Even for only 9 miles? I agree that there is something interesting about a machine that hangs all of it's underthings out for all to see. We have an engine modeled after a british loco, and it's a bugger to fire on a hot day, you can't get away from it. You wear long sleeves just to keep the hair on your arm.

The GG1 is a good engine for the bookkeepping department. Ever sit in one? You are running an engine from a phone booth. High voltage electrical gear just beyond your ear. Ergonomics wasn't Loey's strong suit.

There was a fella here that ran one of those things in mainline service. Had a three or four lightweight car intermediate length run. Tooling along at about 60 MPH coming up to a slow order. Dropped a couple of pounds of air to slow things down, no change on the speedo, or amp guage. Few more pounds, still no change. Few more. Radio crackles. Conductor swearing a blue streak. Seems that all of the car wheels are locked up and bouncing along. Loco never noticed.

The GG1 was rated at 5000 hp, with a 5 minute 3000HP overload rating for a total of 8000HP for hillclimbs, or starting.

My grandfathers collection has pictures of the first GG1 into Harrisburg PA.

I gotta scan some things if anybody's interested.

Power directors office Harrisburg PA, Catenary line crew Paoli PA

Power directors office is still there, and untouched except to black out trackage that is removed.
Have a picture of my grandfather sitting at his desk, and me, in the same pose, same desk 50 some odd years later.

Trainwire
Posted By: RODALCO Re: Locomotive pictures - 02/17/06 11:51 PM
Hi Trainwire, if you got any piccies, please scan them in , that would be great, even a schematic of the electrical and traction drives.
Thanks Ray
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Locomotive pictures - 02/18/06 01:25 PM
Hey there, Trainwire! Long time, no see (text, that is [Linked Image]...)

Quote

Romance of steam? Oh puleeze. Ever run one of those things on a 100 degree August day? Even for only 9 miles?
...
You wear long sleeves just to keep the hair on your arm.

LOL!!! ROTF-LOL!!!

Never rode in any Steamers - only rode Diesel-Electric Locomotives (mostly 2nd Generation units); but have seen a few Videos shot In-Cab, during drags with Steam Power.

Those Engineers never sat still! Pulling - and I mean PULLING on the Throttle in either direction! Every time the Locomotive passed a Flange Greaser, the Throttle had to be brought down, then back up again - or end up with the wheel slip hazard of the century!

Firemen stoking the Firebox here and there, (not as often as I figured). Everyone looking for the next Block Signal's Aspect - and confirming it... loudly!
All under a mind boggling >90 dB "Roar + Clackity-Clack"!

No wonder Old Timers (from Steamer Crews) are/were almost 100% deaf! All the ones I met, had a universal term:

"What?"
"Huh?"
or the commonly used
"Whaddyasay?"

Servicing every 250 Miles sure makes for an overhead nightmare!

Like the Old Timers said;
"Watching Steamers' or 'Not Having To Run / Maintain A Steamer' is a great experience", which I fully agree with! Those classics were simply amazing to watch!, even more interesting to understand their functionality.

I was reading an Article in "Trains" Magazine, which discusses Helpers - modern (RCE/DP), "Manned Helper Sets" of Diesels, and in the days of Steam.

The Steam operation is very interesting - though being the Helper Crew in Tunnel Territory must have really sucked! (read: Tunnels filled with smoke - and lots of it!).

Apparently, in Grade Ascending Helper jobs, once the Helper ("Pusher") got the "High Ball" whistle from the point Locomotive, and the reply whistle was given, the Engineer in the Helper would open the valve (throttle) fully wide - sitting on sanded rail, and leave it until the point loco started; then backed down as the train gained speed (without backing down so far as to create slack, or pushing too hard as to toss cars out).

Same article shows a Helper Set of Diesels (Cut-In Helpers) in Ascending Grade Tunnel Territory, with the picture taken about 10 cars out of the Tunnel.
In the background, there is a HUGE cloud of black smoke rolling out of the Tunnel.
The Helper Set is a 4 Unit Lash-Up of "Tunnel Motors" (SD 45 T-2s from EMD), and the trailing 3 units are totally covered with soot! The 1st unit is "1/3 sooty"

This shot was taken when "SP Stilled Owned SP" [Linked Image]
Must have been back in the 70's or 80's, since the "Southern Pacific" stenciling was not the "Speedline" type, and there were still Oscillating Headlights on the units - with no Ditch Lights.

On the same subject - kind of!; S.P. had the "Cab Forward" versions of Steamers (2-6-6-0 Articulated???), which must have made Tunnel Districts - and mostly any District Jobs, a lot less "Smokey" - and possibly much cooler.

I do feel bad here, as this thread deals mainly with Electrified Equipment, an area of which I have very little experience with.
All the equipment I have dealt with, had some type of Prime Mover coupled to a local Genny.

Sorry to "thread Drift" towards Non-Electrified Railroads so much!

Scott35
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Locomotive pictures - 02/23/06 04:10 AM
***Bump-A-Roon'io***

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Scott35
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Locomotive pictures - 02/23/06 09:25 PM
Reference the whining crapola about it being hot enough on the footplate of a Brit steam loco to burn the hair off your arms, purrr-leeeezzzze! Any bits hot enough to burn a True Brit's arm ( say 900 deg F, dull cherry red ) would have drawn the retort;
"Don't bloody well touch it then, you thick bugger!" [Linked Image]

Rule Brittania! 126mph, 3 July 1938, steam passenger locomotive and carriages: Sir Nigel Gresley's "Mallard".

( Admitted, it nearly went through Crewe Station sideways, but you can't have everything! )

Alan
Posted By: energy7 Re: Locomotive pictures - 02/23/06 10:14 PM
Wow,
How could I stay out of this thread on my favorite subject - trains.
I'll admit that I'm not much of a juice loco fan, but it's all tremendously interesting, thanks, All.
But, there's nothing like steam. Scott35, when you mentioned cab-forwards, I had to jump in. SP had 195 of them, almost all where 4-8-8-2's. If they were to run them cab-in-back, you would be about 75 feet behind a 6000 HP, miilion lbs machine with ear-splitting steam exhaust.
There's a story in Trains Mag about 3 or so years ago, describing being in the cab of UP 3985, the 4-6-6-4 they still operate. The Diesel power in their train crapped out in the snowsheds over Donner Pass, so they had to open 3985 up. I believe they mentioned breathing bottled air, and enduring 200 degree cab temperatures, until they were out of the tunnel. Some fun, Huh!!!
I run 750-1000 lb. 1-1/2 inch scale steam. It's still hot, but all fun.
see www.trainweb.org/vcls

Regards to all,
Energy7
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Locomotive pictures - 02/24/06 12:08 AM
Thanks to Dr. Beeching, who closed down vast swathes of "uneconomic" branch lines in the early sixties in the UK , steam lives on. Miles of unused track, and unlimited supplies of scrapped steam-locos ensured survival. Nearly every loco, brand-spanking new or old, was sent to Barry Island in S. Wales for the oxy-torch, some straight from the makers to the scrapyard! Preservation Societies have since kept the fireboxes in steam for us all.
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk

gives a taster of just one of many.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Locomotive pictures - 02/24/06 02:04 PM
Ah..... Sheffield Park to Horsted Keynes! That brings back memories. We used to vacation in Sussex when I was a kid, and I rode the Bluebell Line many times. [Linked Image]

I also used to love the narrow-gauge Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway over in Kent. Some of the local children used to take it to school every day, and I was so envious! [Linked Image]
www.rhdr.org.uk
Posted By: classicsat Re: Locomotive pictures - 02/25/06 05:06 AM
A couple weeks ago I looked into the Keighley and Worth Valley RR in West Yorkshire. Mostly becuase of the Oakworth station, seen on a music video I saw.
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Locomotive pictures - 02/26/06 08:23 AM
http://www.kwvr.co.uk
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Locomotive pictures - 02/28/06 11:13 PM
At the risk of being controversial, if we look rationally at the superceding of steam by electric and diesel in the UK, it never made economic, social or engineering sense. As a prime mover, steam cannot be beaten. Guess wot they got in atomic power stations?
The engines are simple, have bags of starting torque, speed and guts, they are low tech, run forever ( some of the engines BR scrapped had been in daily use for 60 years) and they run on coal, which as any idiot knows, exists in vast reserves under the UK and the US. As for the 'day to day maintenance' red-herring, this consists of a man who can, at 4am, a] clean out an ash-can b] use a box of matches c] use an oil can d] turn on a water faucet and e] shovel coal into a box. Then do a shift as a Fireman.
Electric traction, as we have seen above, is wonderful but shot full of complexity and compromised design, imposes vast capital cost and is inflexible, since till fully wired up you got no receipts. Diesel traction is not as good as steam [ ie a gearbox or genset/electric motor plus the prime mover = complexity = cost ], it runs on fuel supplied by [ahem] foreign persons and you could argue produces just as much pollution, especially the particulates.
So, having destroyed the whole steam culture, sent 19,000 perfectly good engines to be scrapped, put 20,000 skilled men on the scrapheap, destroyed the infrastucture and transport links to many small communities in the North and West by ripping up 4000 miles of track, guess how much was saved? A piffling £28 million. And today the Rail network still strives to come up to a 'standard' that any pre-war 'God's Wonderful Railway' man would have dismissed with utter contempt.

Alan
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Locomotive pictures - 05/12/06 02:40 PM
BUMPADOODLEDOO!

Anyone got any more electric locomotives / machines / pics / info / - please?

Alan
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Locomotive pictures - 05/13/06 04:37 AM
Hey energy7, just saw your reply! Wish I would have seen it sooner, as quoted below:

Quote

Scott35, when you mentioned cab-forwards, I had to jump in. SP had 195 of them, almost all where 4-8-8-2's.

Ahhh, so they were 4-8-8-2's! Don't know where I came up with "2-6-6-0's"!!!

Are you an "SP Fan", or an "All-Around Your Area Railfan" (or "Foamers" / "Ferro-Equine Philes", as the Old Timers would refer to us as).

Scott35
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Locomotive pictures - 05/13/06 11:33 AM
Sorry to be controversial, but the replacement of steam locos _did_ make economic sense!
First, Diesel and electric require a _lot_ less daily maintenance, not even counting the coal and water filling (especially the coal filling requires a lot of machinery in the stations and both are time consuming).
Second, the starting torque of electric and diesel locos is much higher than of classic steam locos. Especially in countries with lots of mountains the first electric trains ran _much_ faster (I'm talking differences of two hours or more!) than steam trains! For example across the Semmering (Austria) steam trains reached an average speed of 15 km/h whereas the first electric trains reached an average speed of 60 km/h!
Besides: hydro electricity (or electricity generated from burning gas or biomass) is a _lot_ more environment friendly than burning coal in a loco. Plus a big power plant is always more effective than a small loco.

And there's alway the fire risk with steam locos too.
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Locomotive pictures - 05/13/06 09:10 PM
Texas. Good valid arguments, and I sense I may be losing this, but I'll soldier on! Well, I guess we can't halt 'progress' but I would suggest that the slow Austrian steam-locos on the grade mentioned were maybe underpowered then?

It took longer? "Get up earlier." my mum used to say! I don't buy the 'time-saved-on-going-anywhere' argument. Concorde used whistle over the pond in no time. The taxi from Heathrow to London crawls along at walking pace up the choked M4 and you might just as well be in a horse and cart.
Such mountain grades as you mention would be the exception though- most railroads are built as flat as possible with cuttings and embankments to give long grades.

A piston-operated steam engine produces near maximum torque at standstill with a minimum of bits and will outperform any electric motor, dc / ac chopped wave or otherwise ever built, at start and low speed on a hp/hp basis. Look at any e-motor rpm /torque/amps curve - it's the achilles heel of the method that has thwarted engineers for over 120 years- poor acceleration, complex brush gear and interpoling, ac-dc conversion / transmission over distance and the associated losses. But it does take real experience, skill and intelligence to drive and plan the firing of the boiler on route in a steam loco, which in these modern days is eshewed as somehow unacceptable. E or D drivers just open a controller and don't need a fireman either.

Let's look at maintenance. The engines did require de-ashing, water fill, coaling and oiling and general TLC. But one could counter that these activities were done by very-lowly paid employees and that their actions gave locos and rolling stock very long working lives, maintaining capital value and a certain employee ésprit. Diesel and electric locos don't need any maintenance? You could let loose an ordinary Joe with an hours instruction on one? The heat efficiency of a steamer [c.10% at the track] will be a lot less than a power station-[c.20%] - but hold on a cotton-pickin' minute! - you ain't got it to the loco wheels yet mate! Or a Diesel-[35%] seems good, till you realise the torque at the shaft needs to go through a gearbox / clutch / alternator / switchgear / control circuit first and the torque at zero rpm is er... zero. In order to run either you have to import/refine the oil or build a vast transmission infrastucture first. Steamers hauled their own [and everybody elses] fuel from the pits/docks/opencasts. Coal still exists in vast reserves across most of Britain, N France, Belgium and the Ruhr. Noticed the price of oil lately? Good decision to abandon coal?

Pollution? Yes you could smell, taste and see it, [LOVELY IMO!], but it was not an insurmountable technical problem. London went 'smokeless' by law when I was a boy. The pea-souper fogs we got in London were like something out of Dante's Inferno- you could not literally see your outstretched hand, and they killed the frail and aged. Business responded by making 'smokeless fuels' available to city consumers. Diesel particulates are just as deadly, but near invisible, so that's all right then! Big power stations spew out acids and ash dusts too- in the seventies and eighties the UK neary exterminated the forests in Germany with acid rain pollution from coal fired power stations. The technical solution was -put gypsum manufacturing plant on the chimneys and make innocuous sheetrock with it.

As I said in my previous post, when the dust settled in Britain after the restructuring, a government white paper revealed total saving of peanuts. The new traction methods were no cheaper to run, they had less income with less track, the first diesel locos were a technical disaster, they still haven't finished electrification 45 years later and the Tunnel link is a bad joke! Rails' problems stem from crap management, poor financial planning, pressure lobbies and political interference, not the traction methods or the engineering.

Fires? Rare events on a well maintained road.

As to bio-fueled rail, the US railroads ran using wood as fuel initially. And fish!!! Unbelievably, one US railroad extincted a species of sturgeon by burning the dried fish as fuel. Now that really must have caused a stink!

Alan
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Locomotive pictures - 05/14/06 09:34 AM
You do have some good points. It seems like the UK had some big economic problems. In Austria and Germany, where I know the figures, electrification was a big success.

The efficiency of a modern power plant is not 20% though - Austria's most recent coal plant goes up to 35% and CCPP (gas turbine+steam turbine) plants go up to 55%!
Besides, Austria is on 78% hydro power, with a 85-90% efficiency, just as Switzerland (don't know any figures for Germany).

Right now Austria tries (to some extent) to increase the renewable energies by building huge wind farms (several megawatts each), steam power plants fired with wood chips, saw dust, grass cuttings, sewage gas,... things that have grown in the forest or meadow and would have gotten dumped otherwise.
Regarding the gypsum issue... in the gypsum the acids are bound and can't get out, so it's a lot better than blowing them out the chimney!
Smoke filtering and scrubbing technologies have really advanced in the last 15 years. Half of Vienna is heated from waste burning and pollution is less than that of most industrial cities.

Regarding the locos themselves: early Austrian electric locos usually had a transmission like the steam locos, and AC motors run on transformers with several taps.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Locomotive pictures - 05/25/06 02:45 PM
More from Alan:

Quote
These are from an undated (and apparently unpublished outside the company) 'English Electric'Traction Technical Services' booklet, entitled 'An introduction to Diesel-Electric Traction Equipment', which is aimed at a pretty basic technical level, such as apprentices - [ or politicians! ] perhaps? A friend got it while an apprentice at Perkins, so I'd date it at late forties/ early fifties. English Electric were actively engaged in the manufacture of diesel locomotives from the late thirties onwards.

[Linked Image]

Pic 1. English Electric Main-line loco [airbrushed line drawing] showing a representational V16 blown 4 stroke diesel-engine in cutaway. Obvious similarities to BR Class 37, with its 3-split windshield, except for the frogeye and the cowcatcher. Love the windshield bars and the horns, soon to be crammed with dead flies! Engines would appear to be rated between 1000-1760hp, and locos available in standard or 3' 6" gauge. Blowers could be electrically-driven centrifugal fans or conventional exhaust turbo-driven. A turbo-charged V12 engine was also available.

---------------------------------------------

[Linked Image]

Pic 2. Another line-drawing representation of a mixed traffic loco, 6 in line blown 4 stroke diesel, again with a frog eye and cowcatcher.

---------------------------------------------

[Linked Image]

Click here for full-size image

Pic 3. Line drawing of a shunting loco, reminiscent of BR Class 08.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Locomotive pictures - 05/25/06 02:51 PM
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Pic 4. DC Generator assemblies. Note the use of 'electro-magnet' instead of 'stator'.

------------------------------------------------

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Pic 5 . DC Motor assemblies.
------------------------------------------------

[Linked Image]

Pic 6. A loco under construction. The roof-mounted electric engine-cooling fan, drawing air though side mounted radiators, was a feature of later Class 37s. This appears to be a chassis only, with no bogies yet fitted. No cow-catcher, but still retaining the fly-traps.
Posted By: Trainwire Re: Locomotive pictures - 05/25/06 08:27 PM
One of the things that killed the development of the steam engine in this country was the failure of the outside vendors of all of the parts an engine needed.

Quick ferinstance, my area, the electrical parts of a steam engine, the turbogenerator, headlights cab lights etc.the injectors, on and on the list goes. As more and more of the railroads went with deseasel less and less of these parts were needed and as such the price went up until the companies went either into other business ventures or went out of business.

It was not economically feasable for the railroads to manufacture their own parts as much of them were patented and required specialized tooling to manufacture.

Here at the Strasburg, we now make a lot of that stuff, we will make you an injector, I am working on the manufacture of headlight and their reflectors. Ever see an 18 inch parabolic glass reflector? NOBODY makes them. Hopefully I can pry the money loose to set up shop.

The steam engine is a really inefficient machine. Most of it's heat goes out the stack. You can't string them together without multiple crews. Modern deseasels have one fella driving, with all of the other engines run by remote control.

Water was always the limiting factor. Water either in a tower or in a track pan had to have a supply maintained, and kept from freezing in the winter. More personell the railroad had to pay.

Quite a few railroads in this country tried english/european designs. Part of the problem is that most of those designs were made with the assumption that there was a short run, and a stop at night. Over here, runs could be thousands of miles over several days with only the crews changing. By going from steam to deseasel railroads could save lots of money not having to have large service centers in the middle of nowhere.

I still have pictures to post. getting the 20 minutes end to end to get them there is the hard part.

TW
Posted By: RODALCO Re: Locomotive pictures - 05/19/07 10:33 AM
Here are two pics from the electric locomotive 1009 in Assen, The Netherlands.

This was one of my favorites because of the big wheels with the spokes. 1D1.
Only 10 of these machines were built for the Dutch railways.
Voltage was 1500 Volts DC.

This was around 1972, My brother and I were standing on the platform.

1009 was towed behind 1151 direction Beilen.

[Linked Image from i123.photobucket.com] 1009 in Assen

[Linked Image from i123.photobucket.com] 1009 in Assen

The yellow train was a passenger EMU arriving at Assen Railway station.

The signal box was near the 12 sign. As teenager i quite often went after school inside the signalbox and had a chat with the signalman, and was sometimes allowed to switch the red lights on for the roadcrossing while he was pulling the lever to drop the roadbarrier arms.

Great those pre OHS days.
This is now all history. All extra track loops have been uplifted, signalbox gone and new station built with only two tracks.
Posted By: 32VAC Re: Locomotive pictures - 05/20/07 03:04 AM
From Australia:

Victorian Railways "E" class:
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/vline/e.html

Victorian Railways "L" class:
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/vline/l.html

New South Wales 46 class:
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/sra/4671.html

New South Wales 85 class:
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/sra/85.html

New South Wales 86 class:
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/sra/86.html

State Electricity Commision of Victoria:
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/private/secv_electric.html

Queensland 3100/3200 class:
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/qr/31003200.html

Queensland 3300/3400 class:
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/qr/33003400.html

Queensland 3500/3600 class:
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/qr/35003600.html

Queensland 3900 class:
http://locopage.railpage.org.au/qr/3900.html

BHP also ran electric locomotives on the Eyre Peninsula of South Australia, will dig & find some info on these. Also led to believe that electric traction was in Western Australia for a while at one of the power stations. There are possibly more than those listed above.
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