Why isn't it DVE as in Deutsche Verband fur Electrotechnick? VDE stands for Verband der Elektrotechnick.

Austria's safety org is OVE: Oesterreichischer Verband fur Elektrotechnik.

Weird....

For the same reason there is a National Electrical Code and not Electrical Code of the USA: The big countries don't need to take other countries into concern.

I noticed a more recent change in the other direction some time ago: On the trains it now says "Die Bahn" as opposed to "Deutsche Bahn"

No. It's Verband deutscher Elektrotechniker, that means Associaton of German electrical engineers, as opposed to Austrian Association for Electrical Engineering. The Germans just like it more personal
Didn't notice that thing with the trains. in Austria it's stil ÖBB, Austrian federal railways (no privatization yet, just endless discussions).

Nach www.vde.de

Der VDE ist der Verband der Elektrotechnik, Elektronik und Informationstechnik, ihrer Wissenschaften, der darauf aufbauenden Technologien und Anwendungen. Als Sprecher dieser Schlüsseltechnologien engagiert sich der VDE für ein besseres Innovationsklima, höchste Sicherheitsstandards, für eine moderne Ingenieurausbildung und eine hohe Technikakzeptanz in der Bevölkerung. Seinen Mitgliedern bietet er zahlreiche Vorteile wie den Zugang zu Experten-Netzwerken, Wissenstransfer, Weiterbildung oder exklusive Web-Angebote - für Neumitglieder kostenlos im Eintrittsjahr.

It would be interesting to compare organizations which include the appropriate national name vs. those that don't.

Some with:

ASA = American Standards Association
CSA = Canadian Standards Association
BSI = British Standards Institute
DIN = Deutsche Industrie Norm (Germany)


And without:
NTSC = National Television Standards Committee (U.S.A.)
UL = Underwriters Laboratory (U.S.A.)
IEE = Institution of Electrical Engineers (U.K.)


Oh, and by the way, it doesn't matter what they call our railways in Britain these days.

It takes only one leaf on the line or the wrong sort of snowflake and nothing runs anyway!

Amongst professional societies the UK is particularly guilty (or is that jingoistic?) in this regard. There is The Royal Society (F.R.S.), The Geological Society (F.G.S) amongst many others… and of course the Royal Navy – everyone knows they’re British… don’t they? Unique in the world, British stamps do not bear the country’s name just the Queen’s head (you’ve guessed which one ) – something to do with being first apparently.

Ah well, things do change. The old Institute of Geological Sciences is now the British Geological Survey. Thin end of the wedge I say …

Hutch F.G.S.

Just as a note to you guys from Europe.
I only buy Electricians Tools that are certified by VDE, in that, all of the tools that I use for Electrical work are insulated to a standard, that is Internationally Recognised as a REAL standard.
Just as a note too, all of our Hot-Work Gear is also certified by VDE, before dispatch to us and it gets re-certified in 5 days from here to there and back!!.

Good point about British organizations with "Royal" in the title.

There's also:

RNLI = Royal National Lifeboat Institution
RSPCA = Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
RoSPA = ROyal Society for the Prvention of Accidents

Quite a few official offices use the H.M. prefix, e.g. H.M. Coastguard, H.M. Customs & Excise.

The ESB, Ireland's national power company (since 1927) has always standardised on VDE recomendations although in some instances would tend to go for the "safest" VDE option. E.g when it came to sockeet outlets they recomended VDE class I and banned class II (ungrounded). It was only when the technical committies (ETCI) came along that BS norms started to be considered. E.g. BS1363. Apparently it was highly frowned upon by the safety experts as it was possible to touch the live pins until the 1980s but the construction industry prefered the british system as it was cheaper and in abundent supply and pretty modular (standardised flush boxes etc). They were importing UK style switches and german sockets which didn't fit the switch boxes until this point. It was also quite difficult to source VDE sockets in decorative styles, they tended to come in flush fitting / surface mounted light beige and nothing else. While UK equivilants were available in colours and brass, silver, bronze finishes quite readily. Did VDE ban metal cased socket outlets? I have hardly ever seen a metal schuko outlet.

Oddly enough, as i mentioned in another post the term "schuko" meant absolutely nothing to an electrician here they were refered to as "VDE type 2" or "VDE 16A side earthed." Where did the schuko term come in?

Ireland still has quite a few societies and institutions that have held on to the "Royal" in their title despite having left the common wealth etc since 1932.

Royal Dublin Society
Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland.

Most of the Royal societies in the UK have Irish equivilants that simply replace Royal with Irish or with Irish National.

e.g RSCPA - ISPCA
RSPCC - ISPCC

We still Have the RNLI, Royal National Lifeboats Institute operating life boat services all over Ireland though. one of the few shared UK-Ireland services.



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 11-08-2003).]

As in the children's society? That's one which doesn't have the "Royal" title in Britain. It's NSPCC (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children).

I think "Schuko" is derived from the translation of safety/security, or protected. I'm not sure if the name came from the recessed design angle, or whether it's to do with the plug design which prevents it being inserted into non-grounded outlets due to the raised ring on the latter.

On BS1363 plugs, the addition of sleeved pins might be a welcome extra safety feature, but I think too much fuss is often made about the lack of sleeving on the original design.

[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 11-08-2003).]

Schuko is short for Schutzkontaktstecker which means grounding plug. Nothing more or less.
Well, IMHO BS 1363 with unsheathed pins are indeed pretty scary. It's really easy to touch those huge pins while pulling out a plug. I've never had a problem using our old ungrounded plugs with unsleeved pins because they have a really huge face preventing you from touching the pins, but the older flat style lugs were pretty scary too, along with those cheap tiny NEMA 1-15 and some other plug styles. Some time ago I nearly got shocked by a NEMA 1-15 plug pack transformer when I tried to unplug it single-handed like I would unplug a European one (use thumb and index finger to pry between plug pack and receptacle face plate). Just before I was touching the live pins I realized it might be a good idea to develop a different technique in the future.

Here's an actual debate on the safety of BS1363 from our parliament in 1972.

Some of the last few comments are rather misinformed to say the least.
Debate from Dail Éireann, Irish Parliament 1972

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 11-09-2003).]

U.K. = United Kingdom. Which kingdom?

It's a little confusing but here's the explanation:

Geography:

Great Britain is primarily a geographical term = The island of Britain and its near-by off-shore islands. It does not include Ireland.

The British Isles = The collection of Islands to the North West of Europe i.e. Britain and Ireland and any off their off shore islands. Much as Scandinavia = Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc.

The present day United Kingdom = "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

i.e. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
(it excludes The Isle of Mann and the Channel Island states (Jersey and Gurnsey) which are "Crown Dependencies and not part of the UK or the European Union! and have almost fully independent legal and political systems but Britain handles their defense and forigen affairs responsibilities)

The 1801 Act of Union effectively merged the Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland together into one legislative entity.

26 of 32 counties of Ireland subsequently left the UK in 1922 becoming initially "The Irish Free State", which had something along the lines of Canada or Australia's relationship with the UK and later in 1932 declaired a fully independent republic and left the commonwealth and cut all ties with the UK.

The UK of Great Britain and Ireland became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from 1922 on.

If you use the term Great Britain you are usually only refering to England Scotland and Wales. If you use the term UK / United Kingdom you are including Northern Ireland too.

If you use the term British Isles you're refering to the Geographical Entity that includes the Republic of Ireland as well as the Isle of Mann and the Channel Island States.
...

Ireland:
Legally and in international politics the Republic of Ireland is usually simply refered to as Ireland or alternatively by it's Gaelic translation Éire. (Northern Ireland's part of the UK and thus refered to as the UK). E.g. my passport says "IRELAND and ÉIRE and European Union / Cophobal Europach (Irish Translation) This use of the word Ireland doesn't cause any confusion abroad but it can cause confusion in the UK where Ireland to some people tends to mean Northern Ireland and Éire tends to mean the Republic of Ireland.. Some UK companies tend to print ROI on the end of addresses which can actually cause delays in delivery where an order is being shipped by a company in a country that has no idea what ROI means. The same companies have been known to send my phone number as +44 (00353) 21XXXXXXX instead of +353 21 XXXXXXX. Which would be like printing +49/0043/1XXX XXXX for a number in Vienna.

...
Confused yet?! I almost am!


[This message has been edited by djk (edited 11-09-2003).]

Djk, I knew all that. My point is that it's only the British who can have the term UK on their passports, which means United Kingdom WITHOUT saying which kingdom-- i.e. ...of Great Britain. Even the USA have the A after the US which means United States of America. It's not just US.

There is (or should that be are?) the Estados Unidos Mexicanos (United States of Mexico) so that 'A' is very necessary to avoid confusion . On the other hand, I cannot think of any other unified Monarchies that rule three geographically concentrated yet sovereign nations (England, Scotland and Wales). Is there any other nation that can send more than one team to The World Cup? - and we all know which one I mean by this!


[This message has been edited by Hutch (edited 11-09-2003).]

Eli,
Haven't seen you here for a while!

British passports don't just say "United Kingdom" on them. They use the full, official name of the country: "United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland."

You might like to look at this thread, which would also be a suitable place to continue the discussion:

https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000176.html


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 11-09-2003).]

From the debate in the Dail Eireann:


Misinformed indeed.

I can't help wondering what sort of notice Mr. Tully had in mind.

I have absoultely no idea. He's credited with many gaffs over the years. Thankfully electrical regulations were drawn up by experts and not by politicians!

Mr. O'Hara seems to have a very good grasp of physics too :P

On the issue of repairing fuses.. repairing a diazed fuse is not exactly an easy task with wire! Although people managed it! I've seen wire wrapped around the fuse (top to bottom). the caps removed and wire poked through the middle etc etc. The UK style ones were a lot easier to accidently over fuse. It would be about as easy as rewiring a BS1362 fuse.

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 11-09-2003).]

Most common way of "reparing" a diazed fuse is just to wrap a strand taken from an old cord around the outside of the fuse. Have seen my uncle do that. The more professional way is to open the fuse and run the strand inside. Still this turns a 10A fuse into a 20 or maybe 30A one. Worst idiots are the guys who stick a solid nail inside the fuse. That's really no blow! My dad tells the story how he sometimes fixed Diazed fuses by buying the appropriate size of fuse wire and opening the fuse. That's really a safe but pretty laborous repair! Wrapping kitchen foil around the entire fuse is another trick.

The kitchen foil trick used to be quite common here as a means of bypassing plug fuses.

13A fuses tended to blow too frequently on large 220V appliences like some heaters and tumble dryers as they were designed to be connected to a 16A circuit and were pushing the 13A fuse beyond its melting point.

Ireland had an option of 16A plugs and used 220V so a lot of heating appliences were intended for European rather than UK market so would simply overload BS1363 plugs.

Overloading the socket with 15-16A would tend to discolour the socket's face plate where the pins had overheated.

The correct sollution in this case was to install a VDE/Schuko socket on a normal 16-20A radial circuit or where rings exsisted to connect it to a ring via a spur fused with a 16A neozed fuse.

At least now with the 230V being the nominal standard across Europe appliences seem to all be designed only require 13Amps.

UK, Ireland, Malta, Cyprus all use BS1363 13A plugs
and Denmark uses its own plug rated at 13A.

How do you connect a heavy applience in Switzerland? They seem to only specify 10A max.


[This message has been edited by djk (edited 11-10-2003).]

You use 400V 3-ph or the new Swiss 16A socket.

I didn't realise there was one

Is that just the same as the old one, recessed triangle with schuko style pins?

Same but with squarish pins 4 x 5 mm