If, in the near future, the powers that be in the EU say 'Sorry guys, we want you to harmonise with rest of the EU, so the square pin plug has to go!'.
Though whatever round pin system you picked to replace it had to take the 2.5 amp europlug as a minimum, What CEE 7 based or related earthed/3 pin system would you pick?
Personally I would go for the French UTE plug/socket style, at least it is polarised when the grounded plug is used.
(P.S. it's a given that circuits would have to be radial).

Welcome to ECN Plugman!


Possible, but not very likely.


The 2.5A Europlug has the problem of fitting BS1363 sockets with a little help. The low load means that there is virtually no risk of overload. But any plug with a higher rating will need to be incompatible with BS1363.


Yup, but the French don't care.

The EU would never, ever, force Britain to change to another plug that is already in use. If you do change, it will be the BSI who have made this decision. (But they will of course blame the EU) The EU might force everybody to change, but that again seems unlikely at this point of time.

To C-H, thanx for the welcome, and for your comments.

One thing is for sure, and that is 'Schuko' is becoming the de-facto standard for Europe.
I think that by it's shear dominance, it will be the one system that won't be replaced,if ever, due to the shear number of users.

Schuko is a defacto standard for a number of simple reasons.

1) It has been the official standard in most of Europe for a long time
2) All of Europe (other than the UK & Ireland) uses plugs based around the original AEG/Siemens system. 2 round pins spaced in exactly the same position since the turn of the 1900s
3) Schuko simply will not become the defacto standard in France. It just so happens that there was a simple bridging system possible with CEE 7/7 by adding a french grounding pin receptical to a schuko plug.
4) Italy and Denmark & some swiss outlets have a safety issue with not using schuko as their outlets accept schuko(or French) plugs but do not connect the grounding strips. So it may be in the interest of safety to phase those systems out. French (non CEE 7/7) plugs won't generally fit schuko outlets because of the grooves on the side. (designed specifically to prevent this!)


BS 1363 is used by something like 60 million people in Europe. It's probably the most modern plug system in use in the EU, having being designed in the late 1940s. It has numerous advantages and is the only type of plug you'll find in the countries in which it is used.

The sockets are not at all compatable with Schuko plugs (the pins are too fat to fit into the receptical)
Europlug (2.5amp) can be "hacked" in though although because of the compulsary shuttering it's very inconvenient at best so in 99% of instances the plug is replaced.

The more modern shutters are specifically designed to prevent Europlugs being inserted. Equal pressure has to be applied to both L + N at the same time, but not at the points where a Europlug would make contact so it will fail to open the outlet.

Add to that the fact that the UK & Ireland allow the use of ring circuits which rely on individually fused (BS1363/IS401) plugs.

Other issues:

UK & Ireland require grounding at all outlets and have done for many many years. The ground pin also is involved in opening the shutters on the socket outlets, so all appliences have 3 pin plugs wheather they need them or not. They may see a 2-pin option as undesirable if it meant a slip back to the old days of people wiring appliences that need grounding to non-grounded plugs!

Lots of appliences, particularly lamps, with very thin cords are still around. These require 3 amp fuse protection.

The system is also fully polarised.. which is not at all the case with schuko or europlug (2pin)


Asthetically speaking the socket outlets are much neater looking, being 100% flush with the wall, than schuko or French outlets.

Oh and finally, unlike most of the 2 pin systems around europe. BS1363 does a very good job of holding plug-in transformers in place. The 3 sturdy pins do an excellent job of holding up even the heaviest transformers, plug-in battery chargers etc.
I've had heavy transformer plugs fall out of outlets in Spain with a loud bang in the middle of the night.

Also, unlike some schuko/French outlets it holds the plugs in well without being ridiculously tight.


BS1363 is an excellent system overall. I have no problems with it and wouldn't like to see it replaced by schuko. Schuko plugs are quite a rarity in this part of the world too. Unlike Italy or Denmark you simply won't see appliences shipped here without BS1363 moulded plugs fitted. There is a full legal requirment to fit them to all appliences sold in both the UK and the Republic of Ireland.

So I really don't think the BS1363 / IS 401 plug is going to disappear anytime soon! Unless someone comes up with something a lot better than it or schuko!

From a safety perspective, i know it's highly unlikely. I'd like to see BS1363 adopted in the rest of europe. Without the ring circuits ! ... just the plug & socket system.

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-03-2003).]

Here, here!

Well said that man.

Hi there Plugman, and welcome to ECN. Which part of the country are you in?

Dave makes an excellent argument in favor of retaining BS1363. I'd say that the main downside to most people is that our 13A plugs are rather bulky, and seem especially so when fitted on the end of a thin 2-core lamp flex. I have a problem with some of the cheap and nasty imported plugs (you know, the ones with very thin fuse clips so that they get hot under heavy loads), but that's a design flaw in the particular make of plug, not a fault of the overall BS1363 design.

I remember a proposal back in the mid-1970s to introduce a common European plug. The prototype unit had three flat-blade pins mounted in-line with the blades parallel, except the center ground pin was slightly offset to one side (imagine the Switss design with flat blades in place of round pins). It was rated 16A maximum, and a duplex outlet had two such sockets mounted vertically side by side. Nothing ever came of it, and I've never seen another reference to it since.

C-H,
Oh come on now.... You know I can't let that go by without commenting!

The EU frequently introduces directives which force people to change things whether they want to or not, in the name of "harmonization." Are you saying that the EU did not force upon us the CE marking scheme, the EMC directive, and the Low Voltage Safety directive, to name but three?

All of which were new to all member countries.

DJK,
Excellent posting in defence of BS1363/IS401.
I'd vote for you to represent our (UK & Ireland) interests in CENELEC!
I agree the only way we should change is if a new better system is developed and adopted in all 220/240V countries, not just the EU.

The fuse carrier and ground pin do bulk it up quite a bit in comparison to Europlug (2pin) but when moulded on BS1363 is actually quite neat and comparable to schuko or NEMA plugs.

The rewireable variety can be a tad bulky! Although not that bad. At least you can get a grip on the things! Try removing Europlug or NEMA (2pin) if your fingers arn't too mobile! I know a few elderly french people who had to have all of their plugs (including the 2 pin ones) refitted with rewirable grounded plugs with handles on the back.

With the way access for the disabled legislation is going I seriously doubt that any move towards a "fiddly" plug would be accepted.

(Under building regs light switches here must be mounted between 900mm and 1200 mm from the ground, must be reachable from a wheelchair.. sockets generally go in at about 900mm for the same reason)

Also, unlike any other system I know of they're impossible to remove by tugging the flex/cable.

Schuko / French recessed plugs often semi-disappear into the recepticle when inserted (particularly the rewirable variety) and it's often a lot easier simply to yank the cable to pull the plug out than to actually grip the plug properly.

I've seen a lot of French cleaners yank the vacuum cleaner cable out of the socket rather than bend down too.

Try that with BS1363 and you'll get no where. The cable always emerges from the bottom of the plug so if you pull it'll just kinda half disengage with the outlet.

Anyway They're just a good solid system! ...

Don't think I need to provide any futher argument to defend them :P


[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-04-2003).]

So - no takers for the round pin systems then !

The one consistent comment that does keep cropping up re BS1363 is it's size: as a '2 pin' plug (with inert or plastic earth pin) it is a bit large, but then it's very size does make it easy to get hold of, when removing it from the socket.

Just as an aside, I have seen some pictures of 'BS1363' moulded plugs, on several manufacturers sites, which are NOT fused. I wonder what countries they are for ?

P.S. In reply to pauluk's query, I hail from the sunny, balmy and HOT (today, anyway) Midlands.

Oh, yes, there is! I just started writing a new round pin standard that will offer:

- Backwards compatibility with Europlug
- Compatibility with current continental plugs
- Polarized plugs with and without earth
- 16A rating
- Compact size
- Child-safety Shutters
- Protective rim and insulating sleeves on live pins
- Naturally tolerant to rain
- Two sockets per box in the UK with flush sockets
- -"- on the continent with semi-flush sockets.
- Three sockets per American style box -"-

I did some math on my way home yesterday, and discovered that you can safely use unfused sockets on a ring main provided certain conditions are met. (MCB+no socket at the ends of the ring+RCD if earth wire is downsized)

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 08-04-2003).]

It's been quite warm today here on the Norfolk Coast as well, but I see the railways are now having trouble with buckled rails. It's not that hot!

Takers for round-pin systems: Well, I'm still quite fond of BS546. I have a lot of BS546 5A plugs on my workshop bench equipment. They're neat, and much less bulky than BS1363, while having an ample rating for the sort of low-power equipment I use them on. The only drawback is that two-pin plugs would never fit three-pin outlets.

C-H,
Do tell us more about this design!

Oh, you have seen it. I'll just write a real spec and give it a name.

Does Neoplug sound good?

Uniplug was taken

Ever see the weird twist fitting sometimes used here as an alternative to BS1363


The plug:

They operate a bit like a key in a lock

and contain a BS1362 fuse.

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-05-2003).]

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-05-2003).]

I think I have seen pictures of those before (the British equivalent of Twist-Lok, I suppose), but I don't recall ever seeing one "in the flesh."

Paul, Here is a drawing sheet of the Neoplug. Those are probably the worst drawings you have ever seen and I will have to make new ones in the future. The dimensions and the lines do not match.

Isn't that remarkably like the Swiss plug?

Paul,

They're used quite a lot here for EPOS and UPS stuff. Particuarly in retail outlets but they're also very handy for computer equipment, servers etc as it's not instantly pluggable out by mistake, you have to think about it!

The only problem I would have with that design is that it doesn't sit flush with the wall when in use like BS1363 and some italian plugs.

Could you make it flat?

Why round pins? Don't they produce all kinds of spring/contact problems?

Wouldn't blades or at least squared pins like UK plugs make the socket contacts easier to manufacture?

The chances of CENELEC pushing for a standardised plug is pretty slim, however, there must be some scope for applience connectors that are better than the current IEC ones?

I don't like IEC connectors for a number of reasons:

Generally unshuttered
Prone to overheating and sparking.
and the figure of 8 connectors aren't polarised.

You would need a keyed plug system:

1 for heavy appliences up to 13/16 amps.
1 for lighter appliences say 5-10amps

and one for small appliences like sound equipment, TVs, VCRs etc etc

At least if there was a standard, safe, universally accepted system it would mean that all you'd have to do is change the plugs!

Alternatively..

What about this scenario:

Similar connector system, but have a European standard applience connector fitted to every applience instead of a plug.

Plugs with a small trailing cable with an appropriate receptical could be sold in each country to suit national standards.

If the design was neat enough, rubust and safe it could be used long term eventually becomming the pan european plug.

When connected to the national plug a screw could be inserted to lock the connector together.

I love all this compare and contrast - I'm getting a sence of deja vu!

https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000167.html

Let me punt my favourite again

This does indeed seem to be a popular topic of conversation.

By the way, am I the only non-North American who likes the elegance of the NEMA configurations?

The main obstacle to eliminating the British style plug is the requirement for a fused plug to accomodate the ring circuit. Why does the plug have to be fused? Why not the socket? Why can't the British just have a fused/circuit breakered Schucko friendly type socket? This way a Schucko plug is protected when plugged into a British ring. If there is an instance where no ring is used, a non-fused type socket could be installed. This would be the most economical and sensable, no?

It would be a major cost savings for manufacturers who would only have to stock and supply one type of plug and for consumers who would not have to rely on adaptors or having a safety problem forcing a euro style plug into a British socket.

Also, I've seen the British style sockets in Singapore and Malaysia.

DJK,

No, but the recess is only 12 mm, much less than the Schuko.


The whole point is that the plug body is assymetric, which means that the ungrounded plug is polarised. (Well, only in sockets designed for it of course.)


Because all sockets already have round pins?

The plug manufacturers already have the tooling for round pins of this size. And the socket manufacturers already have the tooling for sockets contact to accept them.

I wanted a standard which could be combined with the Shucko, French and Danish standard simply by adding a third hole the these sockets.

One shouldn't forget that 500 miljon of the 550 miljon Europeans live outside the UK.


Don't know. I can't see how you could possibly make socket contact simpler than that found in Schuko sockets. You would probably get a better connection with squared pins, though.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 08-07-2003).]

I don't think it needs to be fused.

The requirements a socket/plug has to meet when used with a ring:

1.) Not overload the ring on either side. This problem exist even if you use fused plugs. If don't put a socket at the first and last 20% of the ring, there is no problem.

2.) The socket must handle the current passing through it and it must be impossible to overload it. The problem has obviously been solved for the double sockets used today. Just make the terminals for 20A @ 2.5 mm2) and the capacity between them the same.

3.) In case of a phase-neutral short, a protective device must break the current. A fuse in the plug or socket is one way. Another is to rely on the circuit breaker in the consumer unit. It would work with a 32A B MCB. Even if the you have 70m ring and attach a 30m 1.5mm2 extension cord.

I thought this would be easy. Now I have 13 pages and counting.

Hutch,
how are you doing on your system?

C-H,
I don't like to throw a spanner in the works as I can see you have put a great deal of thought into this, but for use on a UK ring main system either the plug or socket has to be fused. My reasoning for this would be:
1) Possible overloading of the socket, as I assume that multi-socket adapters & power strips would also be unfused & fed by a 30/32A fuse or breaker. Existing BS types have a 13A fuse to prevent this.
2) No sockets in the first & last 20% of the circuit would be very difficult to achieve in practice and almost impossible for retrofit applications, where sockets are just being replaced with the new standard.
3)You state that a 32A B type mcb will adequately protect a 1.5mm cord, what about the more common 0.75mm cords or even 0.5mm cords still found here?
There is also the problem that an enormous proportion of UK installations still have primitive rewirable fuses "protecting" the circuits, with no rcd protection at all. This situation will persist for some years to come. If a homeowner/diyer decided to change their sockets to the "Neoplug" type on one of these installations, it could be quite hazardous.

I would concede that all these problems disappear if we change to 16/20A radials, but is "Neoplug" better & safer than the existing BS 1363?


Paul,
I suspect you may be in a very small minority of non- North Americans with your preference for NEMA plugs, they always appear slightly flimsy to me (15A 125V type).

I agree with David on the fusing. If we are going to keep a 30/32A ring, then there must be fusing either in the wall socket or the plug. Those 0.5mm lamp flexes (and their pre-metric equivalents) are still pretty common.

I think you all know by now that I'd like to see ring circuits abandoned , but even if they were removed from our "regs" today, they would still be in use for many, many years.

Selling a fused version of the "Neoplug" outlet for the U.K. market would be a possibility, although each socket would have to be fused at 13A so you'd lose the closer protection of lower-rated fuses for the smaller cords.

You can also bet that the average DIY bodger would be quite likely to go around the house and fit unfused versions to an existing ring (the fused versions being peculiar to the U.K. and produced in smaller quantities would inevitably be more expensive). That's down to his ignorance, of course, and I'm not suggesting that as a reason not to go ahead with the plan -- I'm just looking at the possibilities.

In some homes it might be possible to split a ring into two 16/20A radial circuits which might be an option for conversion to a new system, but it's not always going to be easy. Right from the beginning, the domestic ring circuit has been allowed to feed a floor area of up to 1000 sq. ft. (later 100 sq. meters), and there are still plenty of houses where just one ring feeds every socket.

On the NEMA plugs, I agree that there are some which are a bit flimsy, but then I've seen some poor quality BS1363 stuff too. Good quality NEMA connectors are fine.

What I like is the way that the pin configurations permit suitable connections and restrict others, i.e. a 5-15 receptacle (standard 120V 15A) will accept a non-polarized two-pin plug, a polarized two-pin plug, or a 3-pin grounding plug. All three 15A plugs will also fit a 20A receptacle, but not vice versa.

Twist the pins around and the same applies to 240V outlets.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 08-08-2003).]

You're welcome. Rather you today than someone else tomorrow.

The thing is that Britain doesn't have to be included in the system. I'm more interested in countries like India.

There is no need to replace the BS 1363 plug today in Britain, but you could introduce a new plug for heavy appliances only, 13A-16A. In thirty years one might reconsider this. Even suggesting replacement to a wider audience will probably get you a Sun-burn...


If the Americans and Australians can get by without having a overcurrent device that corresponds to the socket rating, why would it not work in the rest of the world? There is no problem with designing the socket so that the terminals can handle the load. If it works with the current sockets, why wouldn't it with the new?

No, I'm going to propose the introduction of overload/overheat protection and primitive short-circuit protection on power strips and cable reels. It hasn't anything to do with a new plug, it should be on the current unfused systems.


Yes, but the same requirement effectively applies to BS1363 sockets today. One single socket can be placed closer to the ends.


It will if the cord is corresponding shorter. (About 10 m for the 0.5 mm2 cord)

The risk is in fact greater with an ordinary 16A type C circuit.


Include an instruction sheet informing that you may not do this and the reasons. I doubt there will be a rush to replace sockets. If people do, it will be to hook up the new washing machine, which has a short and heavy cord.

Just to put a slight tangent on this thread ~ If BS1363 hadn't been developed in the 1940's, would we (UK/Ireland) still be on BS 546 ?
I would have kept it, but uprated the '5amp' plug to 10amps, and the '15amp' to 16amps.
As pauluk has previously mentioned, the old 5amp is a handy size physically, and at 10amps, would have covered most domestic uses, leaving the 16amp for heavy domestic uses only.

Plugman,
Welcome to ECN.
Great to have you on board!.

Actually I have another proposal:

Why not go for something like BS546 but with an ability to accept the standard Europlug..

Slightly recess the outlet so that schuko/french plugs can't make contact.

And make one "hole" slightly larger than the other, so that 2 pin Europlugs could be polarised.

Plugman,

South Africa stayed with BS546 on radials and did indeed uprate them to 16A. They are used on all standard power circuits, irrespective of load, i.e. a 40W table lamp!

The 5A plugs are rare and used mainly on lighting circuits which do have an OCP at 10A in general.

It's a good solid system.

DJK - now there's a roundabout thought!

It's often occurred to me that had we kept BS546, the 5A outlets could have been conveniently wired on 10A radial circuits. The IEE Regs. actually allowed them to be on a branch rated up to 15A maximum.

Perhaps we could have standardized on a variation of the design which incorporated an extra pair of holes to take 2-pin 5A plugs as well, such as was found on some adapters, then equipment not requiring a ground could have still been fitted withe the more compact 2-pin plugs. With careful design, the Continental plug would also have been catered for, as with the design on the typical Euro/British socket on shaver outlets.

The French/Danish/Schuko compatibility would have been a problem though.

Guys,
I'm not pushing a Aus/NZ barrow, but what is wrong with Radial circuits and a "loop-in" method of reticulating socket-outlets, provided that these are supplied via 20A MCB's or 16A MCB's, as the cable size and Voltage Drop allows?.

Nothing at all wrong with it!

When I talk about radial circuits, I'm including any sort of star topography as well as a single cable looping to each socket in turn. Basically, the same arrangement as found in the U.S., Canada, most of Europe, and the rest of the world outside of the U.K.

Re. pauluk's comments about 'BS546' sockets that combined 2pin and 3pin holes ~
Check-out this site (They are for the Indian standard, but still basically BS546):-
www.anchor-world.com

Why does my disk drive make a noise when I enter that site? I'm serious!

I don't know what they have in their web code, but for some reason loading it seems to be trying to access drive A:

Anyway here are a couple of images: