Guess I shoulda pointed out that these are the "before" pictures...

per photo #1 it looks like a rather big barn....

Nope, a small barn for the Tom turkeys, only about 50' x 120'. The rearing and laying barns are massive in comparison, 300' + long and about 75' wide.

The horse stables at the Greenbrier dwarf these... no idea on the sizes, we only did temp services there...

Maybe it's just the photo quality, but did they use plumbing pipe for the nipples between the time clocks and the cabinets?

CTwireman,
i was afraid to ask that....

I'm sure that y'all will probably find a number of violations here. The thing that bothers me most about this panel/contactors/timers installation is its close proximity to the plumbing equipment (water heater, piping, and what appears to be a large storage tank of some type).

Question; What is the ceiling above the panel composed of?

Mike (mamills)

CTwireman, yes you are correct, that was white pipe...

mamills, the ceiling is composed of some sort of reinforced plastic sheets that hold the insulation up. The joists are 48" centers... talk about fun crawling around in those attics (jumping from joist to joist more aptly describes)!

The large blue tank is a pressure tank for the water, it stores the water and has an air bladder to provide pressure. Common sight in the WV wilderness... (no city H2O).

After studying the photo a little more, it looks like there are some other problems here as well.

The rotting romex is definitely a problem. (110-11).

The way the romex flies through the air to feed the water heater is not kosher, even though I know this is commonly done. I would bet that the pressure switch on the well pump is fed in the same manner.

It appears that the time clock on the far right is fed with a piece of SO cord from the 4S box.

I really hope that the "Danger-High Voltage" sign is not serving as the cover for the relay cabinet, but I can't really tell from the picture.

There are working space violations too, specifically the water heater is blocking access to the contactor cabinet and it's too close to the panel, and the water pipe is a clear violation of 110-26(f).

'66, you said is "was" white pipe, and from reading your post, it sounds like you're cleaning up some of this mess. I can't wait to see the "after" pictures.

It's hard to tell but it sure looks like there are quite a few white wires going to those breakers... One dual even appears to have two whites on one pole and one black on the other.

The "Danger High Voltage" sign is a sticker placed on the contactor box cover.

The other violations are mentioned are there indeed... Plus more that the pictures can't show... (I'm getting a 2.1 Mega-pixel camera soon)

The romex is real bad considering that these barns get pressure washed with every change of flock. Dust is also a problem, and everything from fires to electic shock has occurred on these sites.

I hope the after pics are "good enough"... ("Good enough, ain't it?" is the WV state motto)

Since I was a sub-contractor for Musser Electric, and he was paying me prime rate for the area, I didn't nit-pick too terribly, so some listing and labelling violations as well as some others slipped throught the cracks, but we did improve the place.

"After" pics will follow...

ya.....we wanna 'after' pix....

When I see things like this, I have to ask: How would I do it differently?
I've worked with turkeys (both the feathered and unfeathered kinds), and I have to say that the area, while not "washed down" or really a "corrosive" environemnt, does see exposure to a lot of ammonia; galvanized sheet metal has a short life. This might be one of the rare times I'd consider using PVC conduit (without it being buried).
As to the "hanging romex:" there is probable a partition that traverses the place when they want to catch the birds. Such partitions are used to push all the birds together at one end- rather than chasing them all over! Therefore, the power "drop" has to be able to move out of the way. For all the times we see SO cord substituted for Romex, this is the one time it should be done. The SO would exit the boxes through proper rubber-bushed strain relief connectors (not Romex or MC connectors), and the board would be hung with jack chain.
The various enclosures would probable benefit from being made of plastic or fiberglass, but I don't see the need for NEMA-4X.
Finally, birds are extremely susceptable to colds, etc. Don't be surprised if you are asked to change clothes, sanitize tools, etc., EVERY time you enter or exit the house. This would be a good time to wear one of those disposable tyvek "hazmat" jumpsuits, and rubber boots. Don't, for any reason, enter another coop.
As a commercial establishment, Romex should not be used. MC should be avoided, for sanitary reasons. While EMT might meet code, adequately supported (lots of hangers)(use mineralacs!) PVC pipe would probably be better. Since PVC expands A LOT with sun, make your runs where they're in the shade.
Comments?

You got it down to the letter, John. We have to shower in, wear their clothes including undies, socks and boots (if the shoe fits, you didn't find it at a B.U.T.A. site) spray sterophene on everything we bring through the gates, including tools, materials, food, cell phone, can of Mt. Dew, ladders, whatever... We step into a pan of iodine solution every time we enter or exit any of the buildings on the site, wash our hands very frequently (I hate having damp hands while making up a hot panel...) and generally take about 3 times longer to do anything...

We get prime rate for the BS...

There's been some big problems at these sites in the past including a near electrocution by a site owner when turning on a breaker for a feed motor (240V). Although it wasn't aproved for this job, Joe has put additional disco's in for the feed motor, usually a HP rated DP switch in a WP box and lever/cover. Once, I was hit in the shower while adjusting the water temp. It turned out to be a fault in the electric fence.

Question: 4 wire sub feeds are required for Ag buildings, are they also required for all subfeeds to other buildings? Isn't that a terribly long path for the fault current to travel, all the way back to the main disco, rather than the nearest subpanel, in this case adding an easy 300' to the one way distance of the circuit? Don't I make the most creative run-on sentences you've ever seen?



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-21-2002).]

Virgil,
Look Out!, the same 2000 differing interpretations of 250-32. Plus the Ag deal.

We couldn't remove the waterline either, in fact, we had done more than approved already but was still under budjet. Some of the fan circuits had to be completely re-routed, and wasn't in the quote.

Conductor fill and derating of conductors was ignored (some may be exempt as nipples), as mentioned before, some devices were used very "creatively", and some modification of "listed assemblies" had to be made because of some poor design decisions. Not sure about the SO cord feeding the timeclock mounted on the door either... But I also couldn't offer any alternatives, so I kept my mouth shut most of the time.

I'm beginnning to believe that I'm the only electrician in Greenbrier County who attempts to follow code, and I'm coming to the realization that it can actually hurt my career! Everyone else can be so much cheaper and quicker and please the customer and make more profit! We did improve it, but it wasn't to the letter like you guys do it...

Me, I'm "hung up on code" and "would get myself shot if I were an inspector" and I'm "pessimistic" and etc. (quotes from various people)

Joe said he "...was proud of the job..." and threw me a high five...

I stood there with a big question mark in my mind...

*sigh*

Nobody wants quality anymore...
</rant>

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 05-24-2002).]

Virgil:
True, you may not have been able to do everything you knew was required to bring this facility up to code, but it's certainly a vast improvement over what was there originally. Looks like a very nice job to me.

I have a couple of questions; 1) how did you handle the "flying feed" to the water heater (the pic is kinda dark in that area), and 2) why did you choose to mount the timer on the outside of the new enclosure (possibly a space problem...)?

Mike (mamills)

What we have been doing for ag buildings for some time is to mount 3R panels on the outside of the barn. They will last much longer than nema 1 equipment exposed to the corrosive environment inside the barn.

Of course if the customer has the $$'s for fiberglass enclosures that's great.....just not typical around here.

GJ

Yes, the timeclock location was chosen more or less because of lack of space, didn't really ask him why...

The water heater is now fed with carflex NM flexible liquidtite conduit (ENT?).

Thanks for the compliments, guys, but we could've done better, I think.

"Everyone else can be so much cheaper and quicker and please the customer and make more profit! We did improve it, but it wasn't to the letter like you guys do it..."


This is also true in our rural market here in Nebraska. Everyone of these jobs requires a judgement call on where to stop, because to really do everything %100 to code would mean destroying the building and starting over. People who insist on bringing everything code will not get any ag work in our market. I'm not talking about new work....but remodel/additions.

Basically it comes down to two questions. Is it safe?? Is it better than it was before??

I think you did well on both counts.

GJ

Webmaster, you came up with very reasonable solution to the corrosion problem—“due diligence.” The only caveat I’d have is that the owner/hands need to close and latch the gasketed door after opening each time. (This will depend in great part if the MCCBs are being regularly used as switches.)

Farmers generally are not into maintaining electrical gear without a very good convincing. Some won’t spend money on a slick, big-city/out-to-get-my-hard-earned-money electrician in a fancy-truck-with-their-name-on-the-doors unless it’s killing their livestock.

I don't know that I would have even posted the "after" pictures.... Not claiming to have done the work myself anyhow. Who was the electrical contractor anyways, Sanford and Son Electric?

PS. In the event the local supply house only has white plumbing pipe... buy a can of Zinc... paint it so it at least looks like electrical grade PVC... Two coats equal schedule 80. J/K

[This message has been edited by 4thYearApprentice (edited 07-13-2002).]

Hello Mr. 4thYearApprentice.

Yes, there are many violations remaining in the after picture, most of which follow under "existing conditions" of which we did not change.

The white PVC in the after pics are really water lines... Imagine that!

We weren't allowed to move them, and we did our best to keep from busting 110.26.

Please keep your comments as diplomatic as possible, which is not a request to prevent one from bringing forth an argument or even a little humor, but rather from bringing forth a "flame".

Thank you,

-Virgil

PS: I also wish to thank you for humbling me, which is something that I may have needed.

(Note other "big-headed" threads...)

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-13-2002).]