Hello everyone, I am putting a bid in for a convenient store in an existing structure. The site is a functioning gas staion with repair and state inspection facility in the same buiding but seperated by 18" cinder block wall.
The owner is using an architect. There are no engineered electrical drawings.
I have worked with the GC before and he is diligent and resonable,(can I say that about a GC?).
I will meet with the local inspector prior to starting work to confirm all wiring methods we use will be acceptable. Other than power and lighting, is there anything else I may be missing?
I have based my proposal off of a meeting with the owner and GC, at which time they informed me what was needed electrically.
I have already written my proposal and detailed exactly what is included in my cost, but it is difficult to exclude anything I may not know is required.

Thanks guys and gals, have a safe and happy New Year!!!

I don't think for what you describe there would be anything special.Building dept. may now want Exit signs.Open to the public now.

Thats a good city to work in.

What timing ... I am in the middle of such a job!

Make your drawings, and go over them in extreme detail with the customer. Pay particular attention to the 'beverage' area and the coolers.

The beverage area will likely need 11 receptacles, on 8 circuits. Go to a similar business, and look at the equipment. The soda fountain will likely need three (but they can be on same circuit): under the counter, over the counter, and neat the top (for the ice maker).

The cooler will need power inside the cooler, power for some serious refrigeration, and they'll want to hang beer signs.
Since the cooler will likely be added to the outside of the building, routing pipe and sealing your penetrations may be an issue.
The health department may want all your pipe spaced off the walls; mineralacs ought to be enough, but some guys want more.

ID every circuit before demolition begins. Many circuits are in sealed off pipes, and are a PITA to identify after the saws-it-all crew chops them off at floor level.

Get the customer to initial the plans that you submit with your permit. I guarantee that they will suddenly discover the need for many additional receptacles after the inspector leaves. (They're trying to scam both you and the city).

Finally, don't forget the phone / data / alarm stuff. They're sure to have an ATM, and that will need a phone line.

They'll also want some sort of door chime. Run power for it, near the door.

As usual Reno gets in quick and correct!

You imply that the existing service bays and fuel dispensing will continue to be a part of the business and probably while construction is going on.

The existing service is likely inadequate (for what is already there even) and the existing panels something I'd rather not even open to look at let alone be obliged to work in.

Assuming (with all attendant risk) that the new work will require a heavy up... I'd suggest doing it FIRST and if at all humanly possible limit all your work related to re-feeding the old panels to the exterior (trough box etc).

If the AHJ is gonna expect bringing the existing service areas up to code(NEC and fire,etc)... be sure you know it before you start and that your bid reflects it.

You can say it but no one will believe you.

Without more info, there are too many varibles. Given its location with the gas station, there may be additional requirements for explosion proof wiring. There are likely state and local requirements too. I remember back in Michigan just as an example an electrical design required an engineer review if the project was over a certain dollar amount. When you talk to the inspector be sure you are comfortable with his answers and do not hesitate to ask questions. If you are not experienced in this type of approach, you may want to add some add contigency to your proposal.

I think he's just converting an old, vacant 'service station' into a mini-mart. That seems to be a common use for old gas stations here.

I hope all had a happy New Year.
Renosteinke, you are right, it is just a conversion of an old service station. It was a large enough space that they were able to section off and we are now converting it.
Through negotiation I have been awarded this job. By my proposal, the owner knows what I have covered and since he doesn't want to invest in an engineer he has agreed to cover the cost plus of anything that the inspector may require that is not included in our original proposal .
He has accepted the fact that a lein waiver will be given to him upon final payment and that if that becomes an issue a lein will be placed. I don't think it will be an issue but it is a neccesity in this business.

Leland metioned EXIT signs which is a good point, I do have them in there as well as emergency lighting.

Bryaninbalt... The existing service is a 100amp 220 volt single phase, we will be upgrading to 400 amp 3 phase 4 wire service. Reason for such an increase is the plan calls for a Dunkin Donuts to take some space in there.

I have already talked to the AHJ and as long as we are not going into the service area or filling area we will treat this as a normal building as far as wiring goes.

Oh and Reno, I didn't put any thought into beverage dispensing counter as the owner didn't mention it, but I will ask him, theres got to be a slurpie machine going somewhere in there.

Thanks again for the help and interest.

Rick

Don't forget point of sale interface with the gas pumps.. The cash customers still come inside

So now that I have negotiated the original contract here the owner wants to add all the extras, he knows thats going to cost extra and he is okay with that. His problem is he is not sure what he needs for his coffee counter. He went and looked at another store and came back with "I need 5 30 amp outlets".
Renosteinke, you mentioned you are in the middle of a similar project now? I am more concerned about my service load then I am the amount of receptacles needed for coffee and toasters, I was origianlly planning a 200 amp 3 phase service for the convienant store, gas station and small service bay. Right now it is all on a 100 amp 1 phase.
I can't do an actual load calc as the actual load is not known yet.
The service I origianlly suggested was 400 amp 3 phase as a coffee chain store "may" occupy some space and 200 amps are thier requirements, that will be on a seperate meter though, so I planned 200 for the rest as described.
The answer, or idea, I am looking for is what is normally installed for a service for conv. store with a coffee section? I will do a load calc before I finalize the service size, but I need the rest of the info first.
I am trying, for my own knowledge, to know if 200 is adequate or will I be looking at something larger?
Thanks for the help guys

Hope some of this helps:

1) You need a cut sheet on *exactly* what is being installed well before you set start work (now wouldn't hurt).

2) You need an actual GC *not* an owner acting as one
(this is the one that will come back to bite you in the butt)

3) The chain stores have their own PM's to act as GC's
(most are ok but that 1 in 10...)

4) Here the restaurant equip dealer or the cabinet shop guy will often act as GC (almost as bad as the company PM but far better than the owner)

As to your (actual) amperage question:

It depends.

Will the donut shop have gas fryers/ovens/etc or electric?
Similar with the hvac equip.

Is a house panel planned (lighting/exterior/signs)?

Even with all gas for everything I wouldn't expect/plan for less than the provision of a 200A service to every operation in the place. Service&Fuel/C-Store/Donut/House

RC: Is this a rehab or just the local.... Trying to get more income from lottery and cigs/soda?

If it's a rehab, with "REAL" future expansion, go the 400.
If it is just get more $ from soda,gum cigs and lottery. 200A is fine.

In this area now, they just want to fill the lobby with something to make a buck.
They make soooo much on the lottery.With the stipulation that they "sell" "food" products in order to get their lottery license.Hence the need for a "convenient" store.

I know people who own stores. More revenue off of lottery than anything else(worth the lose on the goods).Thats the reason they sell other items.

(you pikin' up what I'm puttin' down?)

SCOPE the WHOLE job.

most service station i useally run into most useally have 400 amp min. size both 1Ø and 3Ø system.

200 is plenty big if very small simple station [ if all gas heated ] with few coolers.

i did work on one truck stop i have to replace one breaker and that place the main breaker is dangbat big get this 1600 amp main breaker [ don't ask me how many subpanels just too many to count ]

Merci, Marc

It is more then just cigs and lottery, He is utilizing 1500 sq ft for store space. He is also trying to get a Dunkin Donuts Franchise to occupy what could be half of this space, but he is going forward with the store as he does not know the status of his franchise license. Provisions are being made for the Dunkin Donuts, power wise, if it does go. In the mean time, he is requesting outlets for a coffee counter until the decision is made for the Dunkin's.
I asked him for the power requirements for the euipment he is going to install and after a day or two of him doing research, he tells me he needs "5 - 30 amp outlets".
I had asked him to get a cut sheet of the equipment he is going to purchase and the 5- 30 amp outlets is what he came back. I said thanks for the info, not much help at this stage.
The DnD will not have any kitchen equipment on site so there requirements are a boiler plate 200 Amps.

I wonder in the end, what a customer saves by not using an architect and engineer.

For as simple as it the project is, to trained professionals, the average customer has to make all the final decisions. Give him all the right answers and hope for the best.

As for the coffee center ... here's how I handle it:

First, you throw a collar and leash on the customer, and don't let him go until you and him have together gone over the exact location of all equipment. I take some masking tape with me, and put notes right on the walls and counters in the exact spots where things will be.

Next, be sure to ask the customer what other (similar) businesses he has ... or that he is trying to copy. Then, go look at their gear.

Finally, if there is ANY doubt, get ahold of the vendors, and get the info direct from them.Even if the stuff has plugs - check the nameplates. Far too often, I've had equipment come with the wrong plug.

ALWAYS plan on the coffee center needing more circuits, more power than you plan for. Here's to going up a pipe size, pulling extra circuits, etc.

In my current project, the "drawing" indicated TWO 'normal height' receptacles. After talking with the customer in painful detail, that same wall ended up with ELEVEN receptacles, on eight circuits, with one near the ceiling (soda ice maker), one under the counter (soda pump), and six above the counter.

---First, you throw a collar and leash on the customer,---

WOW!!! You summed that up nice! I will carry that with me.
I am forever being razzed by my peers for giving the customer too many choices (my way of doing the job once).

RC. good advice. In light of what has been stated, Nothing less than 400A.


My thoughts, as you know, Were for the small 2 bay garage already running on 200A (all to common in this area). Everything is oil fired and air, no real demand.

reno, great advice! I usually would put it on paper as we discussed the layout, but what better then tapping the wall for final locations. I also like the way you "collar and leash" I normally refer to it as taking them by the hand.
I had a feeling in the beginning ther could be some nice extras here. The latest one is the existing, or lack there of, fire alarm system does not work. So we will be replacing that too.

Leland, I see your point, there is a seperate 100 amp service that feeds the service bay. Nothing but lighting out there and a receptacle at each of the three lifts.

Thanks for all the help!

On 1 job a few years ago, the GC was getting quite annoyed with the constant revisions on a machine shop layout and wanted to get his floor boxes located once and for all.
He had cardboard boxes cut out to the exact size and shape of the equipment the day that the Owner came out with his latest layout.
Once all of the equipment was laid out, the GC spray painted the locations on the floor and told everyone that ANY change from that day forward would cost money.

Amazingly there were no further revisions to the floor plans.