Just went to the new Lowes here in Worcester MA. Picked up some of that new fangled colored romex. While I was there I noticed all of their display Squre D panels were mounted upside down! They also have displays showing the diy's some wiring. Switches and outlets wired with romex, stapled with NON Insulated staples. Maybe I am being nit picky but if they are showing this in the store what could they possibly be telling people to do with the stuff they are selling them! At least the prices are good.

[This message has been edited by Electricmanscott (edited 03-07-2002).]

Not a flame.

Square D panels are made so the main can be on top or the bottom. There have been several occasions when I have had to install panels with the main on the bottom. No argument from the AHJ. As far as non-insulated staples, here in CO they are allowed.

A contracter I know, who moved here from MA, expressed the same concern about non-insulated staples.

Electricmanscott
yup, an' the 'big orange place' too..

BTW
LOL!, showin' yer Mass roots there with those ins. staples....

Lowes can't even do lumber & hardware right, no small wonder they screw up the electrical.I base this on past personal experiance on the lumber & hardware part. Also, when doing electrical inspections of service entrances, about 1/2 of the failures are due to people shopping at Lowes.

Also not a flame....

To be fair, I dont think Lowe's and Home Depot are responsible for the bad wiring that is done. Unsafe wiring is done by unqualified people.
After all, we are in America and you can buy electrical supplies anywhere. It would be impossible to regulate the sale of electrical supplies only to electricans.
Im not a big fan of those DIY stores and I try not to shop there, but they do come in handy sometimes.

As far as the uninsulated staples go, they should be banned in the next Code. I'm surprised that those stores even sell them. I have seen them there myself and I wonder who buys them. (I live in CT where they are never used.) Check out my photos "Bad wiring? What do you think?" in the photo section to see why not to use uninsulated staples.

Jeez, I've been using uninsulated staples for almost 30 years. I don't seem to have a problem with them, you do have to be just a little careful when using them. Is there a proposal to the NFPA to restrict their use in the next code edition?

As far as the Lowes thing goes that I mentioned above, it is incorrect material & advice that leads to the code violations, courtesy of the electrical dude at Lowes.

I guess I didn't realize that it is a Massachusetts code change that requires insulated staples. Seems like good practice to me. I wonder how may people used to staple two cables on edge. That is another one I dont understand.

Tom-
There is no proposal to change the Code rule that I know of. It is simply my opinion that there should be one. There is no problem with uninusulated staples as long as they are installed carefully. My house was wired with them, as are many others in the US. However, I have seen many of them overdriven and also with 3 wires underneath them. The insulated staples add a little margin of safety.

Home improvement stores should just sell the stuff. They should not give out advice. I have no argument with you on that one. I have overheard the bad advice they have given to inexperienced people, so I completely agree with you.

I was at lowes the other week, and a customer of theirs was buying wire to install a service, he was looking at the 3-conductor URD and wanted to know how to tell the conductors apart, was there any special way to mark them and if they had to go into the meter base in any special manner. And the clerk told him No.
Tom is right on, these people are instructing non-trades people on how to do services or any other type of wiring and themselves dont even have a clue.
Then the inspectors come out and gig the job and have to explain how to do the job right.
Are they really saving money by doing it themselves ??????????
-Mark-

And to think I thought I was the only one who has had issues with Lowes. I too have seen the mockup's for the DIY in the electrical departmetn and have gone to the extent of bringing it up to code for them, after the Lowes Employee said that I was wrong!!! (40A breaker on a 14-2 lighting circuit!!!) I have also been present for the new home owner wanting to do his own service. The Employee was selling mobile home feeder to the home owner to run from his meter base to his weather head!!!!! Apparently they have never heard of the NEC code in that store and the DIY is suffering, while making our trade look bad. I can't count all the times I have fixed the job that a Lowe's Employee has showed a DIY how to do.

Come on, how many electricians does it take to put in a staple?
Please find a NEC reason for "insulated" staples.
Maybe the AHJ should look for some more (like the stuff he didn't catch, & probably doesn't know)
Lowes Blowes

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 03-12-2002).]

Lowes may give bad advice but the price is better than my local supply house and so are the hours! I do hate to hear some of the advice they give to people though.

electure-
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts has found a reason. There are plenty of reasons not to use uninusulated staples, but I'm not going to get into it because this thread is getting ugly.....

I thought this wasn't a place to bash companies. I agree that the advice is questionable at best but this appears to be another hot potato subject.

Maybe it's time to lock this one up....

[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 03-12-2002).]

[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 03-12-2002).]

I have never step foot in a Lowe's store, so I haven't had the pleasure of getting any advice from an "associate" there. I have actually applied for a job at our local hardware store - and this was an actual question put forth to me in the interview.
A customer comes in and wants to purchase everything needed to put in a service, what will you tell them they need and how to "put it in"? My answer was...... If the customer has no experience with any electrical work, and has never wired anything before - I would definitely suggest they consult an electrician, before starting any work at all.
The electrical department "manager" son in law of the owner, must not have been impressed with that answer because he got up and walked out of the interview. Haven't heard whether I got the job or not (been sitting by the phone since October) HA!!! NOT.
I am thankful I didn't get into the position of having to give uneducated advice that could possibly cause someone even less educated than myself to do something improperly and harm themself or others.
These associates are low paid grunts as far as i am concerned - that have been put in the position of selling large quantities of items, so many one not trained or working in the field couldn't possibly stay up to date on. So when the management says we need to sell more of this item or that item, then you either try your dernedest to sell more items or you get bathroom clean up duty on night shift.
Just MHO, Tiff

Tiff,
The sparks were flying off your post, girl. With all respect, Mrs. Sparks, I wouldn't use the word grunts to describe them. Most of them are just trying to do their jobs. I do hold them partly responsible for not learning more about the industry. I hold the Big Blue, and the Large Orange management partly responsible for not better training their people. I also hold the uneducated consumer responsible as well. The fact is, there is a thing out there called freedom, and I grit my teeth when I say that people have a right (IMHO) to work on their own property. Why the teeth grinding, you ask? Because I hate the thought of someone getting killed with electrical work that they did with no qualifications, but in a free society, we are even free to be stupid.
IMHO education is the key. I think it holds true for all parties involved, but the largest burden should fall on the consumer. Why? Because it's their property, their family, their life that they are taking into their own hands by doing improper electrical work. I say these things with the utmost respect for all who post here, and I say it with part of myself in agreement, and the part of me at odds. My heart says, "They have no business doing this work. My head says, "You can't limit (more than already is) what people have the freedom to do.
Tiff, God Bless you, girl, for taking a stand, especially if it caused you to not get a job. If they can't handle the truth, you're better off not working for them anyway.

Sincerely, and Respectfully Yours,
Greg

Tiffany.

I've always admired someone who could stand up for a principle & sit down in their own seat.

Advice has consequences. In the case of the lumberyards, the word is evidently not getting back to management (or they're ignoring it) that their employee's bad advice is costing their customers time & money.

In my case, I have to drive a long way on some inspections & after a certain point, I have to charge for the return visit. So it is costing the homeowner an extra $65 minimum for the re-inspection plus any material he had to discard & close to one hour drive time (one way) back to the lumberyard.

I think there should be a big sign in these stores "Advice is worth what you pay for it."

Tom

Lets be fair here....Sure, everyone has complaints about Lowes and Home Depot, including myself....but the service at some supply stores leaves a lot to be desired!!!

The funniest thing I saw the other day while walking through Home Depot, was where they have the display of an electrical service, big as life, you know the one the 100 amp meter base mounted on a steel stanchon,shortened version of the seu cable & ct, well right on the front of it was a big ' Red Tag ', and below that was a 'stop work order, I couldnt believe laughed all the way to the front door.

Car...oops Tiffany,
Hang in there!!
Morality and ethics are something that we've all been taught. Follow them, and you're sure to lose more money than you can afford, (When's the payoff? When I'm dead??)
I follow the same rules.
Chin Up/Nose Up

Tiffany,

You said something about the low paid help at the home centers. I spoke to someone the other day at Home Cheapo. He said they start about $10/hr. and go up. He knew one person that left contracting to work the electrical department that was over $20 per hour.

Along with the advice I wished there was some way to prevent them from selling materials that should require a permit and be inspected.

Tiffany,

If I was the Interviewer, the ONLY ANSWER I would have accepted was the one you gave!!!

Go back to that Hardware Store and kick that Joker in the ... err.....-you know what/where!


Scott SET

Warning, flaming can be dangerous to your financial future. I was checking out another forum and one of the moderators posted a warning about flaming and law suits. Apparently, if you have some strongly negative things to say about an individual or ocompany, you can lose your a**. However, when there have been cases where it has been a gang flame, then the courts throw it out. The more - the better. Don't be the only one with a gripe.

However, when there have been cases where it has been a GANG FLAME, then the courts throw it out. The more - the better. Don't be the only one with a gripe.
"Gang Flame?"
"Gang Flame?"
Is that anything like a Gang B@ng?
I understand your concern, but if these companies can't take critism from us (I would consider us the "guardians" of the electrical industry), then they have much bigger problems than their lawyers can solve by trying to get money out of some poor electrician. The fact is, they sould listen to us. Why? Because the $45,000.00 life savings that they get from some honest, hard working electrician is nothing compared to the $45,000,000.00 payment that they make to a customer (who had good intentions) who burns his house down, and kills his wife and kids. Customer's response, "Well, that guy over at @#$%@ store told me that I didn't need an electrician. His customers build 200 amp services all the time with no prior experience."
Home Depologically Yours,
Doc
Guardian of the Electrical Industy

In western Kansas we do not have Lowes or Home Depot. You have to drive at least 200 miles to find one. (Wait a minute, western Kansas driving 200 miles to find anything is normal.)
lol ;-)
Any way, here in the west, most city code adoptions do not allow home owners to work on any of the service equipment. And even some towns require on new construction if the basement is not finished the electrical wiring down stairs still must follow the 12 foot rule with receptacles and have lights and switches installed before the house can pass final inspection. As far as the stores they should be used to get parts not training. Electrical wholesellers around here have been hit by contractors not to train over-the-counter.

[This message has been edited by DLinton (edited 03-21-2002).]

One of my former employees is a "certified installer" for the big blue store. He didn't quite cut it for my company and I spent a great deal of time correcting his work. He never got it... some do, some don't. He was a helper who pulled wire and made up recepts. A couple of weeks ago one of my crews saw him at lunch and he told my guys that he was on his way to do a residential panel change out for the big blue store. My employees laughed about it when they told me but I found it to be very alarming that an "certified" unqualified person could put life and property at risk. It just goes to to show you how much THEY DON'T KNOW.

[This message has been edited by arseegee (edited 03-21-2002).]

arseegee, are you saying the big blue store has an EC license and they let their clerks, I mean, "certified installers" do electrical work?

[This message has been edited by eesparx (edited 03-21-2002).]

eesparx, they have no license, no training and know idea about what they are doing. This particular guy installs light fixtures, appliances, water heaters, etc.

I just remembered that about 10 years ago I was getting a replacement hologen lamp for a fixture in my Dads house at the big orange store. I think I needed a 150 watt. They didn't have a 150 but did have a 100 watt of the same style. I thought since it is dimmed down any way a 100 watt would be just fine. The person helping me got wide eyed and sternly stated that the 100 watt will not work. I will have to order a 150. When I asked why he replied, "It will burn the ballast out!" I told him I will take my chances and bought the 100 watt lamp. I think it is still in the fixture to this date. I really didn't have the time to educate him on the differences between electric discharge lamps and halogens. Looking back maybe I should have tried.

Great post Tiffany!

I do try, like many here to be a good doobie, read my code book & gain from the group.
Yet as electure alludes to good guys finish last.
The frustration continues where constantly refined rules and codes are not enforced, as is the case in my state of Vermont.

So why fight it? Perhaps in my later years I shall assume employment in said places, and give 'off cuff' advice to DIYers', hold seminars on service upgrades ( with a hint of rum on my breath)while refering to TimeLife & DIYer GURU's Like This

see ya there!.......