It must just be one of those weeks, but every set of prints I pick up seems to have been engineered by someone who has lived on another planet. Like a '10' KVA 3 ph xfmr to feed a 125 A panel, or (20) 1-1/4 spare conduits to a panel that has only 8 spare ckts, and a (60) pole contactor to for the same 30 ckt panel.

Tell me your story - make me feel better - it FRIDAY!

(by the way, I do know it's hard to get everything right when engineering a job - BUT REALLY)

How about the architect that spec'd outlets in the middle of french doors and floor-to-ceiling windows. And a 6-ganged light switch array in a 4" wide solid wall.

Don't get me started...

How about:

4” GRC conduit for all data drop in walls for a single CAT-5 (remodel of public building)
75KVA transformer (copper) for a 1,500 sf retail lease space (clothes store)
No MC or Flex allowed, even for fixture whips (large box retail)
Voltage drop must be maintained at 1% or better. (large box retail)
Architect specified "plumbing 90s" for all exposed electrical conduit.

How about an engineer that site to follow all NEC codes and Wisconsin code admenments and U.S color codes for a project in a country using another set of codes.

How about being given the wiring diagram for a small quarry on the back of a cigarette packet by the boss then being told "Oh heck you know more about panel wiring than I do. What ever you do will be right just go there and tell me what you need" This after being interviewed in the morning in the workshop rest of that day. At the quarry next

Kenny

Ahhh. Feel much better!!!

Wow, you're ALL working from my plans? Small world!

YOU GET PLANS???!?!?!
Lucky!!
Last renovation job I worked at did not really have plans. Er, well it did but the interior designer made an attempt at doing the electrical "comics" as we called them. Enough said there I think!
I swear a 4 year old with a box of crayons could have done better!

A.D

This reminds me of a church remodel about 13 years ago.. I was working for the campus radio station as an engineer at the time.
We needed to be able to run a 6 pair 22awg PIC telephone cable from the steam tunnels behind the building, into the basement A/V room. We asked for a single 3/4 or 1" conduit, and got a pair of 4".. talk about overkill..

Theres a guy I've worked with in the past who has a full-scaled detail sketch with very specific call outs in every set of drawings - of a beer bottle.

He at the very least has a sense of humor.

The rest of his drawings are not as funny, and just as meaningless.

And then there's the other side. I once had a set out for bid and the bid came back so fouled up I called the EC and his reply was "I didn't know you wanted it that way". Wonder why I prepared detail drawings?

One of the things I am starting to see much more of is plans that are just complete overkill. I understand if the client does not want MC or they want some room to grow later but some of the designs that come across my desk are a complete joke.

One in particular comes to mind, this project (yes I got the job) has a 1,600A service on it, and no matter how I did the load calcs I just cant come up with more than 790A; even with not de-rating anything and putting 125% on all motors it just does not go over 800A.

I don’t have a problem with selling the job, but when the owner asked for a VE, I told him about the issues and the engineer came un-glued. Then the city go involved because during the permitting process and service planning they saw the same thing I did and flat out said you are getting a 600A service, make it work. The city was not as generous with their load cals as I was and they were not amused as me either.

I know that I overkill my jobs to a certain extent because I know that I will get called by the client to scale back - even if my Rev1 drawings were running Romex everywhere! If I start out a bit overkill - it gives me some wiggle room.

Also, If I design something a certain way and get it drafted and submitted to the client and they request it changed, If their is ever a problem or they don't like the way it end up - I can always refer back to my initial design.

Just my opinion, I know alot of it is CYA BS.

I love jobs that are over done, because I can always sell a VE.

What's a 'VE'?

Value engineering... making due with less cost, flexibility, functionality, etc. to bring the project cost down. (we charge extra to VE a project) ;-)

Example:
Using MC in lieu of EMT is a common VE option.

VE... we call that "cutting corners"

Okay, VE. Bidding a job today; POCO requires, for their primary, EB duct, in concrete, chairs @ 10' max apart w/ re-bar stakes, #3 rebar @ 4 corners, 3' long. Job Specs- Sch 80, red concrete @ 10lbs per cu yd. #5 re-bar @ 4 corners, entire length, and down the 4 faces, # a #5 rebar wrap at least every 18". The duct is 1800' long. I offer a VE savings; I think POCO knows what they need... However, I do agree that sometimes it is cutting corners, sometimes a total underminding of the intended quality of the job.

...and sometimes it's a reality check for the powers that be.

Example: I am doing a job right now that the fixture package came in on bid day @ 250% of what I thought was a fair price. The fixture designer had put this package together with a fixture rep and the guy thought there was a lock on the deal. The GC notified me the day after bid and told me I was in the running then asked me for some VE options. I offered up half the fixture package, keeping a portion of the savings for me; the owner got a much better deal and I made a little too. The fixture I furnished were the same if not better quality and there were no cut corners.

Ah ok, I understand now. Thank you for the explanations everyone.

Glad this topic came up!

In my quest to create better Plansets - ones which are high in details, low in errors, and easy for both Plncheckers + Field Crews to read / follow / understand, I would like to ask everyone some very improtant questions.

Best for me to start a new dedicated thread for this, as polluting this established one would be improper.
Look for this new thread under the topic heading of:
"Questions For All Regarding Plansets"
(will return later and insert a link to that thread)

I have in the past - and will in the future, been "Blown Away" by crazy, non-relevent and un-realistic Spec Notes embedded into Plansets and Manuals.

Mainly these insane requests are from firms simply trying to "CYA", and at the same time, not invest a whole bunch of Labor Units into a Project's Design + Engineering.

The usage of "Boiler Plate" Specification text may lead to three individual Plan pages of Spec Notes - and on ARCH "E" size Media!
("E" size media = 36" x 48").

The same applies to Project Manuals, where a firm may simply submit _ALL_ possible subdivisions to the Manual (like all possible for Division 16).

For those unfamiliar with the "Design" side of Planset generation, it begins with some "Conceptual Designs" from an Architect, then progresses towards "Working Drawings" through:
* Engineering by "MEP" firms (Mechanical, Electrical and Plumbing),
* Submission of "Concept Plans" to the local Planning Department, by the Architect,
* Once approved by Planning Dept., submitted to Building Department + Fire Departments.

Usually after the MEP firms have created their stuff + submitted it, the Architect will have a new / revised floor plan (revised through the Planchecks listed above) -
so everyone needs to revise their sets to comply accordingly.
This is typically where things begin to turn bad!

For the "Design/Build" Contract work and Lighting:

A very common thing when I do a Design/Build type Engineering job, is the Architect not only designs the Lighting, but specifies the Fixture types and Manufacturer(s).
Typically, this is performed in conjunction with a "Lighting Supplier" who performs some level of fixture layouts, which are targeted towards lighting levels only - not any Code-related and/or Engineering issues.

One common VE step is to try and use some type of fixture which is equivalent, and more cost efficient
(readilly available, installs much easier, lower costs for fixture + accessories, less of a maintenace nightmare, etc.)

On the design/engineering side, I need to design the Lighting Systems to comply with several factors:
* Energy Compliance (AKA "Title 24, Part 6 - section 5 and 6),
* The Client's needs,
* The enviroment and structural restraints,
and
* Emergency Egress Lighting; -
then I can perform Circuitry Calculations.

Many Clients + Architects are now allocating the task of Lighting Design to me, in order to reduce the red tape involved with Lighting Design and its Compliance.

Now, most of the Design/Engineering related Preliminary work on Design/Build Projects, are compiled as a "Package" by myself, and submitted to Architect + client for their approval.

This makes for a much more efficient design process, and further reduces the overall costs of the complete Project - not to mention it also reduces loss of time and non-coopoerative work progression between all trades.

I will start that new thread (about Planset Questions) sometime soon.

Got to run - just got an E-mail message with revised floorplans - how ironic, huh?

See ya

I recently specced 1400A worth of conductors where 832A is all that was required. Why? Because they don't have the load now, but they MIGHT and it's a whole lot easier to be replacing a breaker than an entire cable run, and the added cost is worth it for the insurance against a later costly upgrade. (In downtime as well as money.) I'd really hope the electrician (or contract agent!) would ask me about it before making the change. I generally try to annotate plans in plain english why I do something like that, but it's impossible to convey every nuance.

Very often the guy on the job has excellent ideas that CAN save a lot of money. But communication is equally important.

Engineer=$300/hr. Me=$65/hr.

I screw up, I work for free to correct the problem (and I rarely screw up).

An engineer screws up, $300/hr to fix it (and they screw up regularly).

Why am I always correcting the engineers work?

Sometimes, I wish I liked engineers and desk work enough to be one of them.

No disrespect meant to the engineers on this forum (if they're here, at least they care that much), but even they will probably admit (to themselves, anyway) that many of their colleagues are shysters. 95% of the builds I've been on have contained a GIANT and costly mistake, courtesy of a high paid engineer (usually structural, often electrical).

Sometimes it's funny, but most of the time it is anything BUT funny, especially for the client.

Scott, I hope you get some helpful advice and will forward it to all the Engineers in the Houston area. Design for electrical is so much like the installation. We have to adapt to everyone, go around everyone, wait for everyone, change for everyone; the first to get there and the last to leave. Mechanical takes two weeks for their design and gets info to electrical a day before finished product is due. Don't even talk about light fixtures. Everyone has something to contribute about them. I have a great deal of respect for concientious Engineers and the complexities they deal with. Oh, but the bad ones....I wonder how they can turn out their product and actually sign their name to it.

I found it interesting once again as I just had another 95% level drawing set come back to me for my corrections. The Architect (I assume) had changed door and hand dryer locations, but the good news is, I must have accurately guessed the Mechanical (with the exception of I had power to one ceiling fan that did not exist, and I will go back and verify things myself after I finally see the Mechanical).

Things seem to change up until the last second on a set of drawings. I just caught another set being sent out for final. I asked to see them before they were packaged, quickly corrected the electrical to relate to the package now being broken into two packages.

As related to me by another Electrical Engineer (not a direct quote) - "It seems that Mechanical and other Engineers know exactly how long it takes them to do a package, as such they complete their work just-in-time. As the electrical hinges on their design, we have to go back and do several days worth of design in, at best, one day to get the design out on time."

All of us have ridiculous time constraints at times. But I enjoy what I do, and any mistakes I make I want to hear about. I appreciate Scott's new thread idea.

Signed,
He who would like Zapped's $65/hr, but will not give up other things he has to earn the big bucks let alone $300/hr.

You guys get $65/hr? Damn, must be nice- when you're salaried, it works out to FAR less than that. A typical $60k staff engineer working 40hrs/week is only making about $30/hr. Even less if you consider most of us have to work considerable amounts of unpaid overtime.

I might have to take off my tie and moonlight as a sparky!

I have experienced this on multiple design build projects only we usually get them the night before they are due back in the architects office.

Just a note from a person who has worked both sides...9 years in Elec. Design & Proj Mngmnt and currently serving in an IBEW apprenticeship.

Two items:
1) most engineering contracts are not awarded T&, they are a lump-sum price with a few paypoints throughout the project. Therefore the more an engr/designer spends on a project the more they eat at their budget - which are not as high as most is the construction world think.

2) Most firms have only 1 or 2 actual PE engineers that work for them, the rest being Managers, designers and drafters - the highest paid of which may be $30.00 an hour/salaried. Lots of unpaid overtime.

Life is greener on both sides...lol

As one of those being berated here, I have a few observations. People think we're omnipotent and can never make mistakes - of course we do (gasp) but when we do we're never allowed to forget them. Some of my personal gripes: 99.99% of my work goes unnoticed. Here's an example related to circuit breakers. Why can't they make CB's thinner so that we could get more into the box? Part of the answer has nothing to do with materials or electrical requirements but rather to how they are installed. The force applied to a thin and narrow CB can be easily misapplied (tangentially to the plane of the breaker), the result of which is to push the CB over, breaking the attachment points and potentially sending the hand of the installer onto exposed electrical contacts either side of the breaker slot as the breaker "falls over". Who woulda thought? I spend large amounts of time looking at data for this kinda stuff. Sometimes we get the plans wrong and try to install outlets in french door slots but for the most part it works out pretty good. Anyway youre a good bunch and I dont get my panties in a wad too often. Ta for the laughs.

Besides, we all know who's REALLY to blame for all the problems- not the engineers OR the electricians, but the accountants and bean-counting managers! I just HATE making concessions based on cost- don't they realize good design practice is already as lean as possible and can't be descoped? I mean, *I* sure don't go looking at a drawing and asking myself "hmmm... where can I waste money today? I know, I'll add and extra breaker here and oversize these cables there!"

So the engineer gets pressured to cut costs on the design and squeaks by with a design that's going to be damned hard for the electrician to build for the estimated cost even under ideal circumstances, so the first glitch of any sort kicks the project over budget, pressuring the electricians to cut corners to save money... See, it's all the beancounters faults!

...as a programmer, I often joke that I program "smart" so for the "upgrade" I can just go back in, and remove the intentional delay loops, so I can brag about increasing speed and efficiency by 30%. I wonder if that would work on the jobsite?

I like Ann and Steve's most recent posts.

These should be read by all.

Scott

p.s. I will get the "Questions For All Regarding Plansets" thread going tonight.

FYI,

Just posted that "Questions For All, Regarding Plansets" Topic in this Forum area (General Discussion).

Look for it at the following link:

Questions For All, Regarding Plansets

https://www.electrical-contractor.n...showflat/Number/161174/page/1#Post161174

Hope to see your comments!

TIA!!!

Scott