We were told at meeting this morning we will be getting uniforms, I asked what these uniforms were made of. I was told they are polyester and cotton. I told foreman that as far as I know electricians are not supposed to wear polyester blends, his rely was pretty much just shrugging his shoulders and an oh well attitude.

I know why we don't wear poly blends but can't find anything on OSHA site that says we can't, any idea where I can find this?

I'm going over his head tommorrow morning, I'm pretty pissed that wanting cheap uniforms is more of a priority than our safety.

Unless you are working Medium Voltage, you might want to just drop it be happy to get some free shirts.

Let's see... OSHA claims to be using NFPA 70E. As this code is often understood, even taking a voltage reading in a panel requires the first level of PPE- which would include non-metling clothing.

That's the claim.

I suppose the only sure answer would have to come from an OSHA response to an actual complaint.

Are you ready to step forward, and make that complaint?

"Unless you are working Medium Voltage, you might want to just drop it be happy to get some free shirts."

So your saying, he can only have molten metal hit him from a medium voltage arc?

No, its just not an argument he will win. You have to choose your battles.

Tell 'em poly will make you stink profusely.....

There's no regulation against wearing polyester/cotton blend shirts.

You just can't wear them while working on energized equipment.

I wear a short sleeve 65%-35% cotton-poly shirt as a regular work shirt.
I have a FR cotton shirt AVAILABLE anytime that I need it, and I wear it when necessary.
After all, you don't see guys running conduit and cable or digging ditches wearing insulated gloves, do you?

There's the right answer. I will use this when my guys whine.

ITO, what does medium voltage have to do with it, I guess you have never heard of an arc flash from 480v? If not maybe you should listen to your guys when they "whine", you may learn something.

Electure, good point and something I did not think of, what about the pants though? I guess NOTHING will be touched thats energized from when we get the uniforms on, after all we were told they are required to be worn at all times and it's against company policy to work on energized equipment anyway unless it's an emergency , I'll just follow company policy to the letter.

I have seen 480V blow up and melt busses; you know it’s a really bad idea to measure the buss with a tape measure.

You know what the difference between an electrician and a puppy is?
Eventually that puppy will stop whining.

None of my guys work 480V hot.

Dont take it personally, I am not trying to be an (edited), but working with electricans all my life has made me one anyway.

[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-11-2006).]

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 12-12-2006).]

ITO,
You must be a joy to work for.

It sounds like both your employees and you are uninformed (not a typo for uniformed).
The difference is that you are the one responsible for their safety training, and providing them with a safe working environment.

A whole crew can quit right in the middle of a job because of a safety issue, file for unemployment, and file complaints with OSHA. Where would that leave you? With an unfinished job, no help, OSHA visiting you, while the un-employees you're paying for are driving by laughing at you.
This is still a better case scenario than if somebody gets hurt.

The next time they whine for a safe ladder you should listen.
If you aren't worried about them, then at least worry about yourself.

I think that any company that provides their electricians with clothing made of fabrics that can melt would have a very serious liability risk if one would be hurt by the molten fabric.
don

You have completely misinterpreted my comments, and spun them quite nicely.

Safety is never an issue and no one is asked to work in a non-safe environment, so you can un-bunch your PC panties. This is construction no one is fun to work for, and we hire, fire, and layoff so many men that my un-employment premiums are maxed out. I have never asked anyone to do anything that I would not do myself, and have even asked them to NOT do things I don’t feel is safe.

This is not about ladders, cords, lifts, hardhats, or trench safety. I listen to legitimate concerns, but when it gets petty I stop listening.

Caveat, if you are working hot hv gear or are any near medium voltage then yeah you need the right clothes, but otherwise it just comes across as petty.



Yes, you do have a good point. You could also argue that not providing proper clothes could be a liability, or even allowing someone wear improper clothes... or many variations thereof, lawyers are quite clever.

[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]

Well now, that was an interesting read.

As a boss you probably do things out of the ordinary, bypassing normal safety measures, just to get the job done. I've done it and seen it done by others all the time.
I've also seen bosses say the employee is whining when they have a legitimate safety concern.

NFPA 70E is titled "Electrical Safety in the Workplace." It is one of the primary references in this subject. OSHA uses it as a "goal post."

This code builds upon what has been well known since the mid-70's: that some work clothes ... primarily cheap company provided uniforms with a high poly content .... pose a real risk of making any heat / flash / fire injury much, much worse.

Now, along with this is the principle that the best PPE is the PPE that you have with you ... and not back at the shop, down on the truck, wherever. Add to this the idea that accidents are seldom anticipated ... they seem to occur when you least expect them ... and the practice of incorporating PPE into your ordinary clothing makes sense.

Do I live in a 'moon suit?' No- but seeing to it that my ordinary clothing at least has a high content of less dangerous fibers seems a reasonable precaution.

Let's face reality; there's not an electrician out there who does not deal with open panels, boxes with live wires, etc. While this may not be "hot work," we all have a very good idea as to the fireworks metal chips, dropped screws, and a slip of the screwdriver might cause.

Don't you think it is reasonable to try to limit the damage that might result? Say, by having cotton shirts?

As a side note, I have had many goals in my career ... but "maxing out my insurance premiuns" has never been one of them! Indeed, since one of the main functions of management is to reduce overhaed expenses, such a situation ought to be a 'wake up call.'

Safety is, first and foremost, a management issue. Tools, equipment, training, procedures will only get you so far; what really makes a difference is the "company culture." Simply put, management has to care, employees have to feel in control, everyone needs to be on the same team. Nothing good can come from a "Lord and Serf" or "Us vs Them" attitude.

Define “high poly content”. No really, define does a 30P/70C count?

Define “high content of less dangerous fibers”

I already provide hardhats and work safety glasses, should I also provide them with “safe” clothes and boots? Should I make sure they don’t have underwear that chafes? Where does personal responsibility come in? I know that as an electrician I showed every day, on time, dressed ready for work with my own hand tools. Is that too much to ask of my employees?

(My crew that does medium voltage terminations is provided with shirts and flash suits and anything else they want for that matter.)


There you go taking things completely out of context to somehow make a point that does not exists otherwise. Read this and consider the word I use, “Unemployment Premiums” I did not say “insurance premiums”.

My general liability and bond premiums are some the lowest in town, I have even picked up jobs when we were not the lowest bidder based on my insurance and safety records alone.

One of the pit falls of running bigger crews is that your work is directly connected to the economy. A dip in the economy means less big jobs, which equals a dip in your labor force, which means layoffs and if it happens enough times (or even once) you can max out your “Unemployment Premiums” very quickly. I guess you could just hire short timers work them 89 days, and then rotate in a hole new crew and never pay un-employment, but I don’t believe in reducing my overhead expenses like that no matter what kind of wake up call you imply it maybe.


To some how characterize my view of whining about a poly cotton blend shirt as a “lord and serf” mentality or to imply that it also somehow means that I would ignore legitimate safety issues, is in itself whining and a gross misrepresentation of what I said.

Having said all that this discussion was about whether or not a person who was furnished work shirts had a legitimate safety concern because it was a poly cotton blend. In my opinion no, unless he was doing medium voltage work. Granted 480V could also be an issue but then again 1) we do not work 480V hot and 2) there is a whole class of electrician that never even sees 480V.

Is wearing the new company shirts mandatory?
Do you work 480V hot?

I can see being forces to wear this shirt and work 480V as a problem, are you saying that is what you boss is doing to you?


[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]

[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]

[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]

What do you call a basement with at least two electricians in it?

A whine celler.

ITO,

Did you mean to write "Unemployment Insurance" instead of "workers comp insurance"?

Situation:

Large project - GC requires each trade to wear the same colored shirt different from the other trades so the GC can identify crews. Company buys blended t's for the crew.

Apprentice is asked to sweep up the main electric room and all dead fronts are on all the panels.

Unknown arc fault ensues and the tee shirt is melted to the apprentices body. More damage is caused by the shirt being melted into his skin than the rest of the arc flash burns............. This guy may never return to work because of it.

Nope, I don't think that company will ever issue a shirt that is not 100% cotton for good reason.

You got me...oppps "Unemployment Insurance Premiums" is correct


I guess I need to condsider my own words.

[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]

After reading some of this I can see how fortunate I am to work for an employer that supplies all our necessary, safe clothing. The training in NFPA 70-E was also supplied by my employer at no cost to me. The difference in price between cotton or some (edited) blend of materials is not a factor when it comes to safety. You can go to work in FR clothes every day and already be dressed for the average stuff you'll face. Any employer that doesn't try to follow safety rules should be fined daily for that abuse. How's that!!!

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 12-12-2006).]

As long as the employer has the right to can you on the spot, and deny you unemployment benefits for failure, upon any instance, of you not using all protection provided to you.

I agree that disciplinary action should be applied for employee violations also. Usually a day off will cure the problem.

I gotta go off now, but beleive it or not 70-E is here and we all have to adjust to it.

[This message has been edited by yanici (edited 12-12-2006).]

I was heading to work the other day and came upon a road crew doing some storm drain work.

As I waiting for traffic to move up to the point of the work being done, I saw this flag man holding the stop/slow sign.

Now, this chap was dressed in a bright yellow suit, wearing an blaze orange vest with reflective stripes on the vest. His ensomble also included leather gloves, a hard hat and safety glasses.

Now tell me. What's the point to this?
Is there some deadly bird do-do, that this man is going to encounter, or is this insurance companies going to far?

I think some things are being taken to extremes some times.

If that were the case I could fire 90% of my crew for not wearing safety glasses, and I preach how important that is.

How about no smoking on the jobsite, which is a safety violation? I don’t hear any whining that I don’t enforce that one, (unless the GC makes in an issue).

How about no radios on the jobsite that is a safety violation? Anyone going to whine about this?

How about that union tool list, why isn’t cotton clothes mandated as part of appropriate attire for union electricians? You have to wear the appropriate pants and shoes, why not shirts?

There is a big difference between providing protective clothing and expecting the highest paid tradesman on the job to show up appropriately attired for their chosen profession.


[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]

How many times have we seen somebody get a cut on their hand with their gloves in their back pocket? Or debris in their eye with safety glasses on their head? Just recently we had an arc flash injury with a foreman who was working energized on 480 with the 40 cal suit next to him in the bag. I think that there is only so much an employer can do before the employee needs to be held accountable for mistakes that we all pay for.

Just like to respond to DNK's post

http://www.ckov63.com/news.php?day.20060429

There was another incident were a flag girl was killed here about 4 years ago but i cant find a link.

[This message has been edited by dougwells (edited 12-12-2006).]

I'm sorry to hear that your employer is issuing poly/cotton blend uniforms. That type of material makes it difficult for the unfortunate ones that find themselves in an arc flash.

The poly/blend material instead of burning away, will melt into the flesh, atleast if it were just cotton, the fabric would burn away. Really complicates things for the surgeons who have to clean up those areas.

The company I work for issues us 'FR' clothing at no charge, and it is up to our discression as electricans when to use it. I know you can order this type of clothing online for yourself. Just may be a better alternative for you instead of 'stirring the pot' on an issue where you may be vastly out-numbered.

Luke,

Here is a handy little chart from a Canadian site but we follow the NFPA since they have allied with CSA.A good read for employers and employees

http://www.esao.on.ca/alert_pdfs/electrical_hazard.pdf




[This message has been edited by frank (edited 12-12-2006).]

Fair enough...

[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]

First of all, this is a forum for professional adults, and is read by many, over a long period. When I post a reply, I will sometimes be vague, or paint with a braod brush, in order to:
- Keep from going off on a tangent;
- Avoid getting personal;
- Try to cover multiple situations; or,
- Try to steer things in a positive direction.

This thread has seemed to be drifting in a personal direction, and I guarantee that will not be allowed to happen.

A famous engineer - I think he was head engineer at Ford at the time - once stressed the importance of having data. Anyone can have an opinion, he said, but data is what can set your opinion apart from the pack.

Since the advent of NFPA 70E, there have been a multitude of makers claiming their clothing meets various levels of protection from electrical flash. This was neither the first, nor will it be the last, effort in this direction.

Prior to 70E, for example, the US Navy had two types of work clothing. While the two looked absolutely identical, the "fireproof" pieces were of a slightly heavier material, and was 100% cotton; the others had varying amounts of poly content.

Likewise, there were all sorts of clothes designed for wear by welders; again, these were often heavy cotton, with leather in the high-wear areas.

The military & police market led to a wider availability of clothing made on Nomex, Kevlar, and other fire resistant materials. With the ongoing campaign againd terror, there has been a whole new industry making fire resistant / no after-flame / no drip clothing has sprung up.

Usually ASTM D6413 is the means used to define the protection these garments offer.

Phrases that keep appearing in the clothing's literature are "exclusive" and "proprietary blend." The term 'polyester', in it's broadest sense, has been applied to a number of materials that pose little hazard- as well as some with a long history of causing harm.

Let's look at just one manufacturer ( www.skillers.com ), whose clothing is intended for electricians. They use three materials:
-100% cotton;
-40% Poly / 60% cotton; and,
-65% Poly / 25% cotton.

It is worth noting that only the last item has a warning specific to its' use where burns might be an issue.

So, while one might be pedantic, and want to debate in generalities... it appears that there has already been quite a bit of real world experience to establish what poses a risk, and what does not. Your generic 65% poly work clothing has certainly been documented to make injuries far worse than necessary.

As to where the individuals' responsibility lies, again, we can debate until the cows come home. The fact remains, as a matter of law, that (going by the letter of the regulations) not only is the employer required to provide ALL protective equipment, but that ONLY such equipment, provided by the employer, is allowed to be used.

In the broader sense, a lot of things have been used to measure both safety and management. Insurance premiums, employee turnover, accident rates, housekeeping practices... and so on.

Perhaps a personal story of mine can shed some light here. I once worked at a place where two people lost limbs in two months. I left there for a place that had not suffered a lost time accident for four years. No one should be surprised to hear that morale, productivity, and profitability were higher at that second, better managed firm.



[This message has been edited by renosteinke (edited 12-12-2006).]

[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 12-12-2006).]

" should I also provide them with “safe” clothes and boots? Should I make sure they don’t have underwear that chafes? Where does personal responsibility come in?"

While avoiding the other politics of this issue, I just wanted to point out that where employees are responsible for their own clothing and gear, they have the option of ensuring their own comfort and safety beyond the minimum standards -- pointing the finger at the employer, then, is of course petty since responsibility for various tools/equipment is discussed and agreed to as terms of employment.

Where the issue arises is where the article in question is company-provided and REQUIRED, by the company, to be worn, no substitutions. If you REQUIRE your employees to wear COMPANY-LOGO underwear, you should ensure it does not chafe.

ITO, I'm all for personal responsibility, I'm not asking for them to buy me anything, I have bought my own FR long sleeve shirt, my jeans or cargo pants that I purchase are never ripped or dirty, I buy the best work boots I can, Ive purchased my own insulated tools, harness ETC.

I can see your point if I was demanding them to buy this stuff for me but I don't understand where personal responsibility comes into play when they are demanding I wear their provided uniform. We do work on 480 and 277, I'm not going to tell you it's a daily or even a weekly thing but we do work on it.

I obviously take my safety seriously, my main problem with the uniforms is I go the extra mile to make sure I am safe and then they are going to demand that I wear what is generally considered unsafe clothing.

I'll even admit to wearing a polyblend on my own once or twice but the thing is it was my choice to do so, I knew where I was working that day and I knew I was going to be doing mickey mouse BS all day.

Maybe I came off like a safety nazi and whiner I can assure you I am not, as I said it's all about choices and it should be my choice If Im going to bend the rules a little, it's totally differant If im ordered to.

Example: Sent to change and outdoor panel that was rotted out, feeds exit and entry gate,CCTV, guard shack at an upscale country club. I pull the meter, we are not supposed to but we all do and it's pretty much expected of us, I have no problem at all with this.

I ended up mangling the meter enclosure badly trying to get it off of the rusted rack and panel so now I have two choices, either call POCO and get butt chewed because we did not call for the meter to be pulled, wait for POCO to show up and its a Friday so the country club would have no gates or security for the weekend or I can replace the enclosure while it's still energized.

I chose choice number two. I wore long sleeve FR shirt, hot gloves, safety glasses and as I said I have my own insulated tools. When asked by supervisor how I replaced the enclosure I just smiled and said "magic" he knows but he cannot condone it so it's left at that.

The whole point is I was not told to do it, supervisor is not that stupid. I felt I could safely complete the task so I did what I felt I had to do to get the job done.

I printed some info out and handed it to the supervisor this morning, told him I'm not trying to rock the boat but I think theres a big mistake being made here with the uniforms and that they are going to spend a bunch of money on uniforms which are unsafe for us to wear and to think about the liability involved in that. He glanced at the stuff I printed out and said it was good stuff to look at and said he'd get it to the VP. I guess we'll see what happens.

Now that the conversation has become so serious - I thought it was a "No-brainer" on poly-blends for our trade, or for that matter a few others...

Now I can also share a story....

Last "Meat-fest", (My annual BBQ on my B-day) yours truely, the rock typing this to you all... started smoking 4 chickens at 4 am in my bathrobe. (Formerly a fleecy blue thing) I went back out to turn them after a while - opened the lid and a huge fire ball rolled up and momentarily engulfed my head!!!! After jumping back and patting my eye-brows and lashes out and gathering a sigh of relief - I then noticed my back was getting warmer, This was a full minute after the initial flash - turned my head just enough to notice that my whole back was on fire! And fire-balls were rushing all around on the fleece of the bathrobe everywhere. Next thing I know I'm in my boxers slamming the BBQ lid on it.

Bottom line - You can't even hang around your house in poly... FYI the chickens were great, smoked for hours after I got dressed for proper cooking.

edit poor typing......

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 12-13-2006).]

Some of the comments in this thread scare me, many opionions, little facts. Lets answer the question shall we? Here is a OSHA regulation that has been in existance since 1981.

"1910.269(l)(6)(iii) The employer shall ensure that each employee who is exposed to the hazards of flames or electric arcs does not wear clothing that, when exposed to flames or electric arcs, could increase the extent of injury that would be sustained by the employee.

Note: Clothing made from the following types of fabrics, either alone or in blends,
is prohibited by this paragraph, unless the employer can demonstrate that the fabric has been treated to withstand the conditions that may be encountered or that the clothing is worn in such a manner as to eliminate the hazard involved:acetate, nylon, polyester, rayon."

I could also quote several general requirements on this topic from OSHA that require employers to follow industry standards like the NFPA 70E, the related 70E topics have been covered in this discussion.

In addition the new OSHA standard uses the exact wording from the 70E regarding clothing requirements. It is due out soon, and can be downloaded from www.osha.gov. While you are there, feel free to browse all of the injuries and fines from recent arc flash related accidents involving systhetic blend clothing.

electure,

I have a feeling you are doing the right thing but for the others viewing this please clarify the statement:

"I wear a short sleeve 65%-35% cotton-poly shirt as a regular work shirt.
I have a FR cotton shirt AVAILABLE anytime that I need it, and I wear it when necessary."

You change shirts right? You are not putting your FR shirt over your poly blend shirt, right?

"Now, this chap was dressed in a bright yellow suit, wearing an blaze orange vest with reflective stripes on the vest. His ensomble also included leather gloves, a hard hat and safety glasses."

If you read the injury reports of the highway signal workers, you will find the equipment the state is providing is necessary, objects thrown up from the road surface, have removed eyes, opened heads, and caused many life disabling injuries.

Hats off to PennDot



[This message has been edited by LK (edited 12-13-2006).]

Les, how come the road crew were able to wear baseball caps, and short sleeve shirts?
Just the flagman were dressed this way.


A guy told me today, insurance companies give you a break on your premiums if you require and mandate protection.
Some of you guys in the big shops should be able to verify if this is true, I have no idea.

one thing to remember is this...it all boils down to money...the lower the price of the contractor, the more work, the more men, but the less money to spend on frivilous things like safety.

as an employee, realize that you are paying for all of that safety gear. you are paying for it by producing enough revenue for the company to pay for it. If you don't produce the revenue, where does the money come from.

ITO is a union contractor, many of you were union employees, but how many were union contractors? nothing better then 60-80 guys who feel entitled to tell you every day what you should give them. Important things get lost easily in the barrage of nonsense.

just a different point of view...

Zog, thank you for an excellent post!

It is true that "electric work" encompases a very wide range of work, and some contractors are exposed to dangers that others only read about.

As for road crews ... sad to say, but there are cretins out there who actually AIM at flaggers (we've had them killed by drivers screaming 'get out of my way!'), I have had stuff tossed at me by passing cars, as well as one guy who thought it was cute to stick a tire-iron out his window. (He missed).

Now, I've recently purchased some work clothes. Here's a summary of the pricing I saw:

Cheap poly/ cotton: $15 (trousers)
Heavy duty cotton: $20-30 (includes jeans)
Trade-specific: $30-50
Fire resistant (rated): $80

The burn risk aside, I have no doubt that the $20 heavy-duty work pants will last a lot longer than the cheap, dangerous $15 pants. It will likely be more comfortable as well.

Zog, for clarification yes, of course I take off the "walking into someone's corporate offices" shirt before I put on the FR shirt. Also wear Cotton underwear, and FR pants.

I've never had anyone begrudge me the time to change, any more than they would a mechanic donning a set off coveralls.

"Just the flagman were dressed this way"

The crew is state bid Low ball CONTRACTORS

there are mandatory requirements in most of the plants here and therefore the stuff is supplied by the shop and failure to wear it can get you fired
.....at one plant 100%FRC is on the list all day long while you are on the premises which is very uncomfortable in their boilerhouse in August.

my preference is "Hoosier Casual ".a green FR jacket and Carhartt® bibs , unless I'm only terminating, or working a nice, quiet commercial job....

on a personal note, I finally drug up from the foundry rat hole and am as happy as a clam, at a coal burner pulling fiber and installing new PLCs.
where, I must wear .....hard hat ,safety glasses, hearing protection and I added leather gloves and a reflective stripe on my HH ......and CANNOT work without a partner

Sounds alot like TVA togol. Except for the reflective stripe on my HH. No complaints though.

[This message has been edited by Luketrician (edited 12-14-2006).]

Luketrician,

I have a little roll of the stuff, seems to work pretty good, especially up in the coal bunkers

FYI, there are FR reflective vests available with Cal/cm2 ratings.

This thread has been relocated to the Occupational Safety Area

You can access and post HERE