You are running a feed a 20 amp 240 volt feed to air air condition compressor outside. You decide to run a 12-3 RX wire and install a weatherproof GFI receptacle across the red and black wire of that 12- RX wire and use the black and red wire for the HVAC. The receptacle is wired in before the disconnect, so that you can De-energize the AC and still have the recpt. hot.

Does this meet code? Yes? No, if not, code sections please.

I think you meant to say the GFCI is wired between the red and white, or the black and white, not the red and black.

Anyways this is an interesting qquestion and I am going to be watching this one.

I have contemplated doing this more than once, havent done it yet, too lazy to dig in the code for supporting articles. Like BigB said I will be watching this question.

It certainly sounds like an interesting idea but I am going to sharpen my pencil and start looking at that condenser label.
You might get away with it if you had a small mini split with a 10a or less FLA. (210.23(A)(2) and 440.34)

Time to follow Greg & look thru the book. My gut is it could fly, as I can't put an Article on it right now.

Sure! Why not? (Though there might be other issues if you put 240 volts across a 120v GFCI :D)

Ultimately, you're describing a sort of tap - though no additional overcurrent protection is needed, as you're within the ratings of the conductors all the way.

Or, are you? Any condenser that calls for a maximum 20 amp breaker is also going to allow the use of #14 wire. You're also going to need a disconnect downstream, in addition to the breaker in the panel

If it's not compliant, it should be. That sounds like the perfect service receptacle setup for maintenance.
Joe

There is 210.63, but it prohibits the required receptacle being connected to the LOAD side of the disconnecting means, this is from the 2008 NEC.

210.63 Heating, Air-Conditioning, and Refrigeration
Equipment Outlet. A 125-volt, single-phase, 15- or 20-
ampere-rated receptacle outlet shall be installed at an accessible
location for the servicing of heating, airconditioning,
and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle
shall be located on the same level and within 7.5 m (25 ft)
of the heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment.
The receptacle outlet shall not be connected to the
load side of the equipment disconnecting means.
Exception: A receptacle outlet shall not be required at oneand
two-family dwellings for the service of evaporative
coolers.

Technically it works, but if the AHJ asks if the 2-pole breaker is intended, and UL Listed, to protect a line-to-neutral load you may have a tough time answering.
About half of the time that I have seen this type of installation it has been passed, and gigged the other half.

Also 210.23(A)(2) prohibiting receptacles on a circuit feeding 'fixed in place' equipment would come into play.

Besides...if it were that easy why would they sell disconnect switches that have a GFCI already installed in them?
Go to www.geindustrial.com and search for DET-382 to see the GE product; several other manufacturers have the same thing.

IMHO I would suggest that you run this question by the AHJ to make sure that you won't have to tear anything out and do it over.

Yes, 210.23 (A)(2) would work.

Thanks Ghost307

"Technically it works, but if the AHJ asks if the 2-pole breaker is intended, and UL Listed, to protect a line-to-neutral load you may have a tough time answering."

What? With the NEC requiring multi-wire branch circuits to all trip together, it's impossible to argue that any multi-pole breaker is NOT approved for line-to-neutral loads.

Not sure how the GE product is wired, but unless you pull another complete circuit for the GFCI, I'd say it sure sounds like they're putting a receptacle on a circuit that serves fixed equipment. I can't imagine UL listing something prohibited by code.

I'll have to look at 210.23(A)(2). Considering all the gas appliances that use a simple cord & plug to feed their igniters, fans, etc., I again have a problem with an overly broad application of this idea.

I addressed 210.23(A)(2) a couple days ago.
If the FLA of this condenser is 10a or less it would be OK.
That could be true of a small mini split.

Would you apply any load calculation whatever to a service receptacle?

I have an issue with considering, say, the HVAC guy's vacuum pump as any manner of 'utilization equipment,' as it's not something ordinarily present. It's not as if it's a table lamp or something.

I deal with industrial roof fans and gas-fired space heaters daily. Finding a receptacle within even 100-ft is rare. On the roof? Get real- there's not a single receptacle in over 30 acres of roof! ANY trick that might let me have power at the work site is to be encouraged - not quibbled over.

I believe that the GFI in the disco box requires a 120 volt circuit to feed the GFI. That is for the very few I've seen.

A 240v circuit is a 120v circuit if they drag in a neutral.
210.4(C)ex2

Big B,

Sorry, I did mean the black and white, not the red wire. DUH! That is what happens when I type too fast and I don't think things through.

John,

This other AHJ I was talking to said that you can't put the receptacle on with the HVAC feeder. The receptacle would have to be a separate branch circuit. However he quoted sec. 440.3 which then referred him back to sec 430 (?) something which he said meant no it can't be done. I am trying to remember what section in 430 prevents the recpt. being on a multi-branch circuit.

John,

I have to go through sec. 430 to see what that other AHJ was talking about. Maybe I can call him on Mon. to see what code section he was revering to.

I think we're making more of this than needs be. We can eliminate all debate by simply trading one $20 item for another!

That is ... eliminate the HVAC disconnect. Instead, put in a 2-space / 4-circuit panel. Your wire is now a feeder, not a branch circuit.

The breaker can be used as a disconnect for the HVAC, and you have another two circuits available- say, one for lights and one for the service receptacle.

Harold I referred to that article 210.4(C) but ex2 says it is OK to have a L/L load on a multiwire circuit if you have a 2 pole breaker.

The biggest issue will be the FLA of the condenser. If it is more than 10, that is the deal breaker. You also have the problem that even a 10a condenser probably needs more than a 20a breaker to start reliably.

Reno has the answer. Run a slightly larger feeder and use a disconnect box with a panelboard that would handle both circuits.

Greg and Reno,

I agree with you guys, but this other AHJ says it is not allowed, not me. I don't see anything wrong with it. For all practical purpose, the only person who will use that outlet is the HVAC tech. Plus, when he is using that outlet, the compressor would likely not be on.

I have seen where there are 2 or more compressors at one spot, the EC usually runs a feeder over and puts in a sub panel and a WP GFI outlet.

You can always 90-4 the thing but 210.23(A)(2) would be my sticking point if the FLA was greater than 10a and if the OC device is >20a you are still a no go.

OK, let's cut to the chase. I think we're talking about a specific diconnect: the Square D QO200TR http://www.drillspot.com/products/44409
/Square_D_QO200TR_Air_Conditioner_Disconnect_Switch

This is a nifty little disconnect - you can swap out the 60-amp switch with the QO breaker of your choice. Now one is tempted to ask: what if I tap off one of the legs on the 'in' side, and power my receptacle with that? (Anyone tempted to 'double-lug' here?)

Here are the problems with using the disconnect switch that way: you don't really have room for those splices, there's no place to land your neutral wires, there are not enough ground lugs, and there's a real issue in finding a place to land that third connector.

As an alternative, you could use something like this panel:
http://www.grainger.com/product/SQUARE-D-Load-Center-5B756?s_pp=false

Combine that with a breaker like this one and you're home free: http://www.superbreakers.net/homt20...;utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=product

As a caution: Ignore the prices, as they bear little resemblance to what you'll find at the local supply house.

Otherwise, let's imagine a 12/4 cable (2 hots, neutral, and ground) feeding a junction box. From that box it continues direct to a duplex receptacle. Also, from that junction box, you splice off to feed an HVAC disconnect as well. Is this allowed?

Well, let's look at the tap rules. The tap rules all assume that there is overcurrent protection at the tap. So, if there is a breaker or fuse in the disconnect, the disconnect is the 'tap' and you are legal. The problem is that you're now limited to the rating of the receptacle; most HVAC will want more power than 20-amps.

I'm not aware of an easy way to provide the overcurrent protection at the receptacle- unless you want to use another fused HVAC disconnect there. That could work: a gutter for the taps, feeding a row of disconnects.

Greg, I think you're over-thinking the FLA issue. That rule would apply only to the rating of the final overcurrent device- that is, the fuse / breaker in the disconnect. It would not apply to the ampacity of the feeder.

Instead of trying to get tricky -- of which the NEMA crews engineer OUT any such possibilities -- the normal lowest cost, quickest solution is to just run extra conductors.

Out my way HVAC units/ condensers are typically situated less than a dozen feet from the MAINS panel -- on the 'utility' side of the home.

So there is absolutely no point in trying to get tricky. A short run for a GFCI -- trivially short -- is more than sufficient for the Code.

Then the HVAC is run, regular way.

I've never seen a home with the MAINS panel criss-crossed from the HVAC pads... never.

I'll admit, California weather and EUSERC standards make my situation different from many areas of the country.

As for commercial work -- new work -- EVERY contract I've seen in the last fifteen years requires a GFCI at virtually every single RTU/ HVAC condenser -- regardless of the Code.

I will admit that until the Code changed, all of the older work omitted any service power for the HVAC contractors -- who ended up chaining extension cords dang near forever.

Reno, the FLA issue comes up in 210.23(A)(2) in reference to receptacles on branch circuits feeding fixed in place equipment. If you do not have in intervening OC device before you get to the receptacle it is still a branch circuit.

I suppose you might want to start the fight that the disco for the A/C makes that part of the load a feeder but I bet you don't win if the inspector doesn't like this setup.

Your other solution (2/4 box)is a far better idea.

Tesla, I must be the only guy who ever heard of HVAC techs hot wiring their service equipment to the line side of the disco.
My wife was in that business (HVAC sales) before she was a builder and I spent a lot of time talking to the crusty old techs.

Greg, out my way such discos are a little light on neutrals.

But I suppose 230VAC compressors/ freon recovery machines exist.

Out my way commercial RTUs routinely have a GFCI placed directly to the line side of the disco -- itself normally 3-phase -- on its own 120VAC 1phase circuit.

There is a perfectly good ground in there tho and an HVAC tech on a hot roof doesn't know or care that there is a difference.
If one of those phases to ground is 120v, it will run his vac pump and he is outta there. Hot wire in a receptacle on the line side and off you go.
... at least that was what they were joking about.

I always assumed that was why we wanted a real receptacle up there.
210.63 appeared in the code in 87. There are plenty of buildings around here older than that, considering we were 2 cycles behind most of the time.

I guess Tesla has not seen the floor sander guys either!

I came upon an HVAC tech that had a steup with clip-on leads going to a small 480 to 120 transformer so he could have 120 at the unit; that was really a site to see.

For the record...

I've seen floor sanders stick bare, naked, stranded #8 into dryer receptacles to power up their Hummels. (belt style floor sander - Germany)

I had to ask:"Since the 30A 240VAC circuit is used time and again, why aren't you just using a dryer pigtail to Hubbel twist lock pigtail?"

At the most, only two styles would be needed.

...

For your amusement: bowling lanes -- the wood ones -- are sanded by 8 to 15 hp machines. The crews typically clip right on to the 200A 208Y120 bussing -- with battery style jumper clips! That's the NORM for them.

Don't ask how I know.

...

Gee Guys,

I am sorry that I started another discussion. I just get a lot of complaints from EC out there in the field when they run across an AHJ that is a real PIA. A lot of the guys know that I am just a regular EC by trade and I don't try to make up my own rules when I enforce the NEC. I am also willing to discuss my call with any EC or HO that questions me. I will always ask them their side of the story or why they think that I am wrong. If they convince me, or help me see something in a different light, then I would be happy to change my opinion and pass their job.

I think we are just starved for something electrical to yack about and these things take off.

Greg,

Well I think I just started another one under a different topic!

Our company runs 14/3 up to the 2gang box, feeds 2pole toggle for the blower and outlet for HVAC guys, it also feeds toggle near hatch for lite, the condenser is anywhere from 20>50 amp and we run another feed for conv. Outlet. But it is still the same result that Harold asked about, using 2pole breaker to feed unit as well as outlet and lite. We have never had problem with inspector passing it, I am on long island,NY.