Here is the situation:
I was called to a customers house(upscale 2 story 9years old)to turn over a horizontal recpt(180deg)so he could plug in his hair dryer(one with the right angle plug headed in the wrong direction).It is located in the vanity/sink backsplash in a corner.His wifes vanity/sink recpt had the GFIC recpt so I figure his is on the load side of her GFIC.I plug in my GFIC recpt tester to his recpt and sure enough he has power on his recpt so I push the botton to take power off the recpt and it did but her GFIC did not trip out.All other recpt,that I can find, are working in the house except this one.The load center has 1 GFIC breaker and it is OK.
I had come up on a similar problem once before and found the GFIC for the bathroom tripped out in the garage hidden by peg board.Well guess what,this customer covered one whole garage wall wth peg board and he swears that he did not cover up any recpt.
Where should I look?What should I do?
Just to let you know what I am dealing with here,is that her GFIC load side is wired to the two bathrooms up stairs!!!!Nice huh?
Chris

Here is my suggestion.

If the peg board is removable remove it to find any GFCI back there.

You said there is GFCI braker. Make sure you have voltage on the downstream side of that GFCI breaker.

Kitchen GFCI.

Maybe a GFCI covered with an appliance,poster,cabinet...anything.

Check for continuity at the nonpowered receptacle between Grounded(neutral) and grounding. If there is no continuity then there is a GFCI problem if there is continuity then there is loose connection of the hot conductor.

I will post if any other ideas come up

P.S. I had the same problem could not find a problem to a bathroom receptacle. Come to find out the GFCI that powers that bathroom is in the garage behind a poster. It took me 2 hours to find it. Then i had to explain to the home owner why i charged him $120 to reset a GFCI.

Good Luck
Edward

Edward, Thanks for the suggestions.I wonder what goes through the electricans mind(?) when they wire houses like this.
Chris

Chris,

On a lot of the older homes the electrical contractors would use 1 GFCI to protect all the rest in the house. (This is very true for condos and track houses.) The most common spots for GFI receptacles where, garages, basements, outside receptacles, and bathrooms. I found once the GFI was outside in the back yard. ( I couldn't hear the recpt. trip.) Most times you can hear them trip. Once I heard the GFI trip and couldn't find it. (This one was in the next room which happened to be a living room. It was behind the couch.) Once I found the GFI under a whirlpool tub. The only other way to find this receptacle is to use a tester that puts radio freq. on wires that are not energized. Sort of like a tracer tester but works on dead wires. Happy hunting.

Harold

Did you try taking her GFCI out and check for miswired? I've found on more than one occasion a miswired GFCI that wouldn't let power out, but the outlet still worked. Is his outlet a dead end? If so it may be easier just to refeed it off hers.

Thanks Harold and Electric Eagle,
Yes I did remove her GFIC and it is connected properly.
His is a dead end connection and yes I can run it from a closet recpt that backs up to the bathroom and change his to a GFIC.
I haven't given up on the garage behind the peg board or covered up with some other stuff.
I don't have an RF tracer.Maybe Santa will bring me one.If he did I bet I would never have need for it again but it would be good insurance.
Chris

Hello Chris,
The tester that gives a signal on dead
cables sounds like one I would be interested in.
I guess it would be like an amprobe PASAR, which has been a great device to use on live ckts. If they have anything that traces with a dead circuit, I would like to know. Good luck.
Sounds like a tough find.

To trace dead wires use a data cable tracer It has batteries in both ends. I usedone once to find an open hot in box that had be covered by bead board on the ceiling in a cottage. Make sure the power is off.

The continuing SAGA,
I looked behind the pegboard and on all the garage walls,in the other bathrooms,in the kitchen, on the patio and side,front and back of the house,and all the other rooms in the house and still no tripped out GFCI.This house is easily 7000sqft,so it remains hidden.I haven't given up yet.
Chris

Is it under the jaccuzzi tub?

Is it in the upstairs bathroom? :-)

Do the breakers have meaningful labels? Ok, so that was a silly question. Sorry.

- les

Some circuit tracers like the Greenlee PowerFinder will work with low voltage DC. You can hook to the neutral of the circuit through a 9 volt battery or 2 to a remote grounding conductor. The will let you trace the neutral back to its source.
Don

To all Sparkys,
I looked under the jacuzzi tub and there is a GFCI protected recpt that is protected by the GFCI breaker in the load center and is OK.The upstairs bathrooms as mentioned in my previous post are protected with her GFCI recpt.
Tell me more about the circuit tracers.Do you apply a signal to the dead recpt noodle or hot and then what?
Chris

Chris, this sounds like an expensive search.

Chris, I've got a tracer Amprobe AT-2004. It would trace that wire down through the walls in about 3 minutes, but it's not cheap. You need to get one that will trace in walls and floors.

Chris:
With my inspectors hat on:
Some contractors here (NJ) do this:
The mandatory outlet in the basement is the GFI
This covers the O/S recept & garage usually.
(You may have this to the bath)

The 3 bath houses have the GFI in the bath closest to the panel, usually the 1st floor.

A few go to the O/s closest to the bath, & then the bath.

IF NOT THE TESTER THAT EAGLE REFERED TO ABOVE IS THE "KEY", bought 1 about a year & half ago, and it is PRICELESS.

As another guess, how about in the attic, if the affested bath is on the upper floor.

BTW< for what it's worth, my pet peeve is a 350K to 500K house, 3 baths, & 1 GFI circuit?
(NJ still under '99 NEC) Talk about being "cheap!!

Good Luck...
John

Chris, I had a similar situation once and to make a long story short, believe it or not, someone had put a GFI in the crawl space,about 15ft. back behind a bunch of junk. I had to trace the wires from upstairs. I seen it was going out of the bottom of the box, so I went under the house. I used my little Greenlee pencil tester to see which romex didn't have power on it. When I found out, I traced it to the GFI. Whoever put it under the house that far, was FAR from thinking right Hope this helps... Steve..

Steve,
I wish I had a crawl space to look into but this being Fl(Big house on slab) no such space,however there is a storage space on the second floor that I have not gone over in detail.
Chris

Chris,

Here is another off the wall thought. Is there any sub panels? Maybe the GFI is a breaker in a sub panel? Anything like a walk in attic? Any subpanels up there? Some of the big homes I inspect here in NJ have many subpanels, they have been in garages, attics, basements, kitchens, and bedrooms. Let us know if you find it.

Harold

Hi.

I have some ideas, based on the answers to my questions:

Were you actually able to determine which circuit breaker services this receptacle?

What tester (make, model) did you use to test the receptacle?

What type of cable serves it (Romex, "BX", etc.?)

Just remembered a situation I had a few months ago. Similar scenario. Changing recepts in bath. Gfi breaker feeding baths. Tripped breaker, changed recepts, reset breaker, no power! Tested breaker and it was ok. Searched for gfi recept that mght feed baths, nothing. Looked all over house. Eventually found outside recept was also on circuit and was also dead. Pulled out recept and found backwiring was just loose enough to cause trouble.

Years ago, knew a contractor that would install the GFCI outside of the dwelling then go to the bath room from the load side of that GFCI.

Very cost effective, but in a northern climate not very convenience friendly with the Home Owner wanting to use the bathroom recp(s) on a cold and rain morning.

Some GFCI also open the neutral circuit, not sure if they open the neutral circuit for down stream slaves.

To all Ya'll Sparkys,
There are no other dead recpt/ckts in the house that I can find therefore with no ckt tracer I am unable to locate the ckt in the panel.
The GFCI recpt tester that I use is the Sperry Inst type.
The dead bathroom/sink recpt is fed with NMC/Romex.
I guess the male customer is using the female customers recpt to blow dry his hair.I haven't had a chance to get back there.
I really do appreciate all the suggestions and encouragement.I am going to give it one more try next week(based on all the above info) and if I don't find it I am adding a GFCI and feeding it from the closet.
Chris

Chris,


GOOD LUCK! And let us all know what you find out. You have plenty of people waiting on the edge of their chairs, waiting to see what you find. We all want to be with you to see if we can help you but you are the only one who can do it. Again good luck and let us know.

Harold

Hi.

To locate the breaker on a live circuit, I have had excellent results with http://www.triplett.com/bksniff.htm. Plug in the "transmitter" at the receptacle in question and then use the wand (attached to a battery-operated unit) and at the panel, you will hear chirping when you pass the wand over the breaker for that circuit.

To trace conductor(s) definitely not energized, a tone and probe set such as http://www.progressive.textron.com/products/toneprobe.html can be used. You will need to connect the "transmitter" or "toner" via clips to a pair of conductors, or one of the clips to ground and the other to a single conductor, or in the case of BX, one of the clips to the BX shielding and the other to a single conductor.

In this particular case, (being absolutely certain there is no current) put the tone on the conductors, and you should be able to pick up a signal somewhere behind the walls, though it may be extremely faint. I have had success by turning up the volume on the probe and just moving it along walls very slowly. Energized wires will cause a hum, as will fluorescent lights nearby.

I just tried this myself to be extra certain that it will work. (I depressed the "test" button on the GFCI receptacle.) The tone went from the (de-energized) receptacle (on the "load" side of the GFCI) to the (de-energized) GFCI receptacle and was nice and clear. I then checked past the GFCI receptacle and there was no tone whatsoever. So, you should be able to get to whatever is providing the GFCI protection using this method. Again, if there is a lot of interference, you may have difficulty in hearing the tone.

If none of this works, you could, of course, install a new GFCI receptacle.

Or, tell the guy to buy a new hair dryer with a straight plug, or just let his hair air-dry!

Then be sure to add to your bill for the tonsorial consultation fee.

Hope that helps!

Chris, it may be simpler to add him a new receptacle and disconnect the wires on the one that is in quesion and cap them off. Steve..

You can try a compass at the garage peg board.......the needle will be attracted to the EMF of "live" electricity. Works great for those pesky buried outlets as long as they hold after turning on the breaker. You can watch the needle pinpoint and track the location as you slide in across the phantom recep location. That is if it is there and you are close height wise. If you get one of those progressive toners (which are great BTW) get the 200FP because it helps filter out alot of the interference. If I remember right it was about $120 vs. $90 for the 200EP. Not sure if I was ripped off or got a smoking deal but it has saved me alot of time and made me alot of money in the process.

Did a search for some reason and have never seen something like this before...might help you http://www.lessemf.com/electric.html. I think I want one of these. The first one on the page BTW. Is it basically a simple gaussmeter?

[This message has been edited by kinetic (edited 12-20-2002).]

[This message has been edited by kinetic (edited 12-20-2002).]

(Remove the period after html and the link will work)

As a Home Inspector that trips every GFCI when doing an inspection, all these hints and tips on finding hidden GFCI's are extremely valuable to me. I've compiled them.

I've only "really" had trouble once. Older home, 1500 sq ft. Finally found it, just like one of the above, in the attic. Protected two bathrooms, two outside outlets, and the maintenace outlet next to the furnace in the attic. Made it a bit of a hassle to have to take 4 trips to the attic to reset. But, so goes life.

I saw a rather expensive solution to this problem in a new custom house down the street from me.

The electrician did not use the feed-through option on the GFIs, instead, he installed a GFI receptacle at every outlet box in the kitchen, garage, bathroom, etc. I think I counted 8 GFIs in the garage alone!

Just for reference, the house contained almost no sheetrock. The whole interior was done with wood boards, for that rustic look.

The owners of said house had no problem spending money, obviously!!

Wouldn't a GFI breaker and a seperate circuit for said locations have been cheaper and better?

Just had another thought. Someone said something about live receptacles and dead ones and pin backs on receptacles. I would check all the LIVE GFI receptacles and make sure that they are/are not pin back type. Maybe the feed from a GFI feed through pinback came loose so everything down stream is dead. If this is a master beathroom and HER recp. works and HIS doesn't, check hers again to make sure all wires are in tight. Same goes for master bath and 2nd floor bathroom. Check the live ones for a loose pin back.

Harold

Harold
Good thought.I checked 3 of the GFCIs that I thought would feed his recpt and none of them were back stabed.
Chris