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Posted By: petey_c Pool pump question. - 07/08/09 12:35 PM
Got a service call while at a supply house. Older man said that his pump (1 HP 120 VAC Hayward) had tripped his GFI and wouldn't reset. So he changed the GFI and it still tripped. Okay, I figured that he installed it incorrectly. Got to his house and it was a dedicated 15 amp circuit with the GFI wired correctly. PVC pipe from the panel, to a switch, then to the box for the GFI. Here's what transpired: changed GFI, still tripping. (Initial start current 17.5 amps (for about half a second), then settles down to 10.8). Ran temp 14/2 from panel to GFI, still trips. GFI in garage runs pump without tripping. Gremlins or...? Thanks, petey.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Pool pump question. - 07/08/09 12:48 PM
You own a Megger?
What I would do is disconnect the motor, open the terminal box up, disconnect the C-switch and megger the Start and Run windings to Ground.
That should give you an idea of what is going on there.
It sounds to me like you have a winding down to Ground within the pump motor.

With it being a 120V motor, you should only use a 250V megger test.

Hope this is of help.
Posted By: petey_c Re: Pool pump question. - 07/08/09 12:53 PM
Trumpy, I'll borrow a megger from my other job. This pump is only three years old. We thought it was probably going south due to all the rain we've had here this past few weeks, but when it didn't trip the other GFI... I just didn't want the customer to spend $400-500 for a new pump to have the same problem arise.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Pool pump question. - 07/08/09 03:48 PM
If it was water I would expect the problem to clear if you ran the pump for a while ... at least until it rains again.
I know the drill I use to mix mortar and grout will trip the GFCI if I get it a little wet but if I take it to a non-GFCI and run it for a minute or two the problem goes away. wink
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Pool pump question. - 07/09/09 01:34 AM

Hang on a sec...
You said the pump runs from another GFI in the garage??

Did you check the switch, etc wiring without the pump plugged in? And the conductors in the PVC?

Does he have a straight blade male cap on the Hayward pump? AG pool pumps are factory (Hayward) with twistlock!

The GFI is a GFI receptacle at the pump location?

Posted By: sabrown Re: Pool pump question. - 07/09/09 04:09 PM
I am sorry to ask this, as I am sure you have already thought of it, but does the GFI that the pump will run on trip using the test button on it?
Posted By: ChicoC10 Re: Pool pump question. - 07/10/09 01:16 AM
Sounds like the GFI in the garage could be bad. Try running a cord to the bathroom and/or kitchen, assuming they have GFI's.
Posted By: petey_c Re: Pool pump question. - 07/10/09 01:10 PM
This is why I thought of gremlins...: Dedicated 15 A 120 VAC ckt. to SP switch to GFI (GFI 1) near pump location. Changed customer supplied GFI (GFI 1 to my own GFI 2) - still trips. Runs okay on another (older) GFI (GFI 3) in garage on extension cord. Bypassed switch - still trips. Bypassed entire run from panel to GFI, still trips. Changed breaker (getting desperate...) - still trips. Runs okay on non-GFI receptacle (and draws 17 + amps for a half a sec or so). Ground and neutral connections good. Replaced GFI 3 with GFI 2 and it runs okay. (cue spookey music....)Thinking about going to a GFI breaker....
Posted By: FountainGuy Re: Pool pump question. - 07/10/09 09:43 PM
Petey, I think that the 1HP pump at 115V should be on a 30A breaker, but the system might squeek by with a 20A breaker. I don't think that its a ground fault issue. The #14 wire is ok, but my Square-D motor sizing chart says that the breaker should be 30A.

Below is a link from Square D so that you can download an IEC Motor Data Calculator and other small but helpful product selection programs. Hope this helps.
Posted By: LarryC Re: Pool pump question. - 07/10/09 10:39 PM
When you tested the pump with the first and second GFI in the garage(GFI 3 & GFI 2), was the pump still connected to the pool water? Perhaps the ground leakage path is thru the pump shaft, into the pool water and to earth via the pool ...

Obvious question: Can you verify the connection between the ground pin of the pump cord plug and the pump & motor case?
Posted By: FountainGuy Re: Pool pump question. - 07/30/09 10:15 PM
I was recently told by a pool/fountain installer that pool pumps require GFCI protection. Can someone give me the NEC section for this? I use remote pumps (not submersible) all the time, for fountains, with GFCI protection.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Pool pump question. - 07/30/09 11:19 PM

680.22(B) GFCI Protection. Outlets supplying pool pump motors from branch circuits with short-circuit and ground-fault protection rated 15 or 20 amperes, 125 volt or 240 volt, single phase, whether by receptacle or direct connection, shall be provided with ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

2008 added 240v hard wired motors.
Posted By: FountainGuy Re: Pool pump question. - 07/31/09 02:40 PM
I meant "I use remote pumps (not submersible) all the time, for fountains, without GFCI protection." 80% of the pumps I use are with three-phase motors, and 3-PH ground fault protection is pricey!
Section 680.22(A)(5) is specifically for pump power originating from receptacles right?

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Pool pump question. - 07/31/09 06:39 PM
680.22(A) only refers to "receptacles"

680.22(B) says "outlets" not receptacles but 3P is exempt. In fact Florida, in a rare alteration to the NEC, has said they will also exempt 1P 240v motors in 1&2 family. That has a lot of inspectors up in arms who say they will enforce it on a 110.3(B) if they can find a hint of GFCI in the installation manual. (I think that is Hayward yes, Pentair/Starite no but I may have that backwards).
It sounds silly to me. Either do it or don't.
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Pool pump question. - 08/02/09 06:00 AM
petey_c ;

Verify the following:

1: Check the operational state of the GFCI Receptacle in the Garage, by pressing the "TEST" Button.

If the "TEST" button _DOES NOT_ trip the GFCI Receptacle (verify trip by testing with Volt Meter), then the Garage GFCI Receptacle is malfunctioning.
Replace defective Receptacle with known good GFCI Receptacle (if withing your Service Work scope), then try the Motor test again.

If the "TEST" button _DOES_ trip the GFCI, then verify the Ground Pin of the GFCI Receptacle is connected to an Equipment Grounding Conductor / Bond, by using your Volt Meter.
Connect leads between "HOT" & "GROUND" Pins of the Receptacle.
No trip, or Voltage means the Ground Pin is _NOT_ terminated.
This could be a reason for the Motor not tripping the Garage Receptacle.

2: If the above tests result in proper operation, verify the Extension Cord's Equipment Grounding Conductor termiantions are solid on both ends.

If none of these verifications yield any abnormal issues, please reply with your findings.

Also include a little more information regarding the setup, such as:

* The Extension Cord test - are you connecting to the Branch Circuit at the Panelboard (Pump Circuit's origin), or directly to the Pump Motor;

* Ohm reading of Motor Windings, between L-G;

* Capacitor leads not providing path to Motor Frame, via small leakage path;

* Other types of leakage to Ground / Motor Frame.

I would verify the Ground Termiantion of the Garage Receptacle, as that seems to be the "No-Trip" issue.

Another test would be to install a Non-GFCI Receptacle at the Pump Motor (with the circuit connected as normal), run the Motor, and measure Amperes on the Ungrounded Conductor, Grounded "Neutral" Conductor, and the Equipment Grounding Conductor.
Do this at the Panelboard, where the Pump Circuit originates.
Verify the loads on these Conductors with the settings displaying as many Milliamps as possible.

If there is a difference of >5 Milliamps between any of the Circuit conductors, then the Motor has leakage issues.

Also check the Circuit with the Motor unplugged, and with the Pump Switch open, to verify the state of the Circuitry.
Any leakage >5 Milliamps with the Motor disconnected points to Circuitry issues.

Good luck!

Be sure the Client is willing to pay for this Troubleshooting, as it may take several hours to uncover the target problem(s).

Posted By: Scott35 Re: Pool pump question. - 08/22/09 02:53 PM
El-Bump'o!!! smile

Hey petey_c,

Got an update regarding this issue?

Posted By: petey_c Re: Pool pump question. - 08/23/09 10:04 PM
Sorry for the delay. The HO replaced the pump and the new one works fine. No trippin'. Thanks for all the help. pete
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