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Re: Pool pump question. [Re: LarryC] #188323 07/30/09 06:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 30
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FountainGuy Offline
Member
I was recently told by a pool/fountain installer that pool pumps require GFCI protection. Can someone give me the NEC section for this? I use remote pumps (not submersible) all the time, for fountains, with GFCI protection.

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Re: Pool pump question. [Re: FountainGuy] #188325 07/30/09 07:19 PM
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gfretwell Offline
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Quote

680.22(B) GFCI Protection. Outlets supplying pool pump motors from branch circuits with short-circuit and ground-fault protection rated 15 or 20 amperes, 125 volt or 240 volt, single phase, whether by receptacle or direct connection, shall be provided with ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.


2008 added 240v hard wired motors.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Pool pump question. [Re: gfretwell] #188328 07/31/09 10:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
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FountainGuy Offline
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I meant "I use remote pumps (not submersible) all the time, for fountains, without GFCI protection." 80% of the pumps I use are with three-phase motors, and 3-PH ground fault protection is pricey!
Section 680.22(A)(5) is specifically for pump power originating from receptacles right?


Re: Pool pump question. [Re: FountainGuy] #188329 07/31/09 02:39 PM
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gfretwell Offline
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680.22(A) only refers to "receptacles"

680.22(B) says "outlets" not receptacles but 3P is exempt. In fact Florida, in a rare alteration to the NEC, has said they will also exempt 1P 240v motors in 1&2 family. That has a lot of inspectors up in arms who say they will enforce it on a 110.3(B) if they can find a hint of GFCI in the installation manual. (I think that is Hayward yes, Pentair/Starite no but I may have that backwards).
It sounds silly to me. Either do it or don't.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Pool pump question. [Re: gfretwell] #188357 08/02/09 02:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,721
Scott35 Offline
Broom Pusher and
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petey_c ;

Verify the following:

1: Check the operational state of the GFCI Receptacle in the Garage, by pressing the "TEST" Button.

If the "TEST" button _DOES NOT_ trip the GFCI Receptacle (verify trip by testing with Volt Meter), then the Garage GFCI Receptacle is malfunctioning.
Replace defective Receptacle with known good GFCI Receptacle (if withing your Service Work scope), then try the Motor test again.

If the "TEST" button _DOES_ trip the GFCI, then verify the Ground Pin of the GFCI Receptacle is connected to an Equipment Grounding Conductor / Bond, by using your Volt Meter.
Connect leads between "HOT" & "GROUND" Pins of the Receptacle.
No trip, or Voltage means the Ground Pin is _NOT_ terminated.
This could be a reason for the Motor not tripping the Garage Receptacle.

2: If the above tests result in proper operation, verify the Extension Cord's Equipment Grounding Conductor termiantions are solid on both ends.

If none of these verifications yield any abnormal issues, please reply with your findings.

Also include a little more information regarding the setup, such as:

* The Extension Cord test - are you connecting to the Branch Circuit at the Panelboard (Pump Circuit's origin), or directly to the Pump Motor;

* Ohm reading of Motor Windings, between L-G;

* Capacitor leads not providing path to Motor Frame, via small leakage path;

* Other types of leakage to Ground / Motor Frame.

I would verify the Ground Termiantion of the Garage Receptacle, as that seems to be the "No-Trip" issue.

Another test would be to install a Non-GFCI Receptacle at the Pump Motor (with the circuit connected as normal), run the Motor, and measure Amperes on the Ungrounded Conductor, Grounded "Neutral" Conductor, and the Equipment Grounding Conductor.
Do this at the Panelboard, where the Pump Circuit originates.
Verify the loads on these Conductors with the settings displaying as many Milliamps as possible.

If there is a difference of >5 Milliamps between any of the Circuit conductors, then the Motor has leakage issues.

Also check the Circuit with the Motor unplugged, and with the Pump Switch open, to verify the state of the Circuitry.
Any leakage >5 Milliamps with the Motor disconnected points to Circuitry issues.

Good luck!

Be sure the Client is willing to pay for this Troubleshooting, as it may take several hours to uncover the target problem(s).

Scott


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Re: Pool pump question. [Re: Scott35] #188648 08/22/09 10:53 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,721
Scott35 Offline
Broom Pusher and
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El-Bump'o!!! smile

Hey petey_c,

Got an update regarding this issue?

Scott


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Re: Pool pump question. [Re: LarryC] #188663 08/23/09 06:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 65
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petey_c Offline OP
Member
Sorry for the delay. The HO replaced the pump and the new one works fine. No trippin'. Thanks for all the help. pete

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