Welcome to our new Forum!

We hope it will be very productive for all concerned.

We welcome questions regarding our trade and it's codes, - We have some very experienced and knowledgeable users who can answer almost anything. But please remember that this is not a How - To related forum for untrained persons and questions of this sort are not the reason for it's existence. Please feel free to use it for interaction with other members also. If you would like to recommend topics for different discussion areas - Please do. This is here for your use - Tell us how you think We can make the best of it. For ease of use, Please try and post messages within appropriate Areas.

Thank You,

Hey Bill:

Look here the first post --- and the board has come a long way!

IMHO
the forum 'Electrical Contractor' could invite more concerns of a contractual nature

Would you please give some examples of what is and what isn't appropriate as it relates to HOW-TO.
Chris

NOT a forum for untrained persons????
Well, there goes my reason for being here.

Joe,

Whoa! Haven't seen this in awhile!
Yes, we've come a long way

Sparky,

Can you be more specific??

Chris,

That's a tough answer to put into words. My vision of the Forum includes it being open to all, but possibly for different reasons.

Most of us in the trade can tell when we're talking to someone with limited knowledge of electricity and electrical safety. When a person like this asks a safety-related question we should be happy to help them understand the hazards involved and steer them towards a proper course of action (usually to seek the help of a professional)

When this same untrained person is asking how to wire something it gets uncomfortable for us. Because we cannot gauge the knowledge or abilities of this person, any help along those lines may actually be putting them or others in danger. If they don't know how to do it they may hire a 'pro'. If they think they know, well, that could be dangerous ..

Wiring is something that should left up to professionals and those serious and responsible enough to learn how to do it safely (and to code) and not just making it work.

Code, Theory, Safety - they all have to go together as far as I'm concerned.

Does this make sense?

Bill

Bill, All Existing, New, and Future ECN Members:

I believe that we should be concerned about the types of questions, and answers posted here!

Bill's remarks here make sense, and I agree with them. This is not the place for UNTRAINED persons!

Please see Section 90.1(C) in the 2002 NEC.

"Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

See also the Article 100 definition of: Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training on the hazards involved.

If someone needs help, or asks a question when it comes to an installation, or code rule, or some other situation it should not be our job to train them here on this forum.

Some of us are licensed journeyman, and master electricians, and are certified electrical inspectors with many years of experience in this industry. Some members may also be electrical engineers.

It would be interesting to hear what others have to say.

Joe

Joe,

I can't completely agree with your statements. Some of what you describe regarding code rules and installation questions is something that is common practice and perfectly justified when it's between those in the trade or others with serious interest in the trade. Without these we'd have nothing to talk about.

I think that the distinction has to be made on what questions are appropriate here depending on who is asking and the the way the question is asked. We can't always tell who we are talking to or their level of competance, but at some point if we determine that someone does not posess the skills or knowledge to perform a job safely we should advise them to seek training, hire a pro, etc.

It's a fine point and difficult to describe, but I think that we've all made decisions like this before and should have some idea where I'm coming from. There is a difference between someone asking how to rewire a 3 phase motor for higher voltage and someone asking "where do I put the black and white wire" And we don't want to exclude the student from some basic questions either.

So, clear as mud, right?
any other thoughts?

Bill

Bill:

My comments were very clear and straightfoward and they expressed my personal opinion. I have been involved in the electrical industry for over 37 years, so I guess I am too strict.

Your comments are based upon your desire to keep everyone happy, and that's OK.

I have no problem, you should monitor the technical posts and decide which ones are appropriate for this location.

Joe

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 01-14-2002).]

Before the flames start, let me add my two cents worth..

I most certainly agree that this should not turn into a "how to" forum. There are indeed so many variables...the background, skill and competence of the worker, and the quality of equipment being used notwithstanding, each installation is unique in some way. Trying to give step by step instructions, or diagnose an electrical malady in cyberspace can leave one open to tremendous liability.

Regrettably, my knowledge base does not qualify me in any way as an electrician. Any one of you could easily determine that after a minute or two of conversation with me. Without the proper literature in hand, I would have no idea how to rewire a 3ph. motor for higher voltage operation (citing Bill's example), but, at the same time, I feel my experience goes a ways beyond knowing where the black and white wires go. In the past, I have done some electrical work at my community theatre building here, as well as in my own home...all this done after a thorough review of the NEC and local area codes, a LOT of reading, and an inspection by a friend of mine who is a Master Electrician in every sense of the word, and in whom I have implicit trust.

I guess what this all boils down to is this; though I am certainly "untrained" by any standard you may wish to apply, am I out of place attempting to learn from this forum, as well as deriving a certain amount of enjoyment from interacting with the other people here?

Got my PPE on now (to cover my thin skin), so let 'er rip...

Mike (mamills)



[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 01-14-2002).]

Join the IAEI

Here is the list of Chapters and Sections of the IAEI.

http://www.iaei.com/secretarylist.pdf

I recommend membership, and anyone who is involved in the electrical industry should
consider joining.

Endorser: Joe Tedesco, IAEI Paul Revere Chapter

Bill,
One is less alone here as a solo act, after a day of kickin' the trade in the A**,(or Visa-Versa..) I like hearing from my counterparts....
Mike,
I've posted here awhile, and can honestly say anyone who can carry 1/2 a tune has been let to sing along, far be it that I claim perfect pitch
on the other tentacle...
there are self-help forums that could politely be referred to......
Joe,
Endorser, sparky..Greem Mnt Chapter IAEI




[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 01-14-2002).]

For what it's worth ... my 2 cents.
I agree with you guys ref not knowing what a person's knowledge level is and not wanting to give advice to one who may hurt himself with the info we give him. However; let me play the devil's advocate for a minute ...
As a 10 yr apprenticeship teacher and 10 year adult ed instructor and a former (5 yr) high school electricity instructor I've heard most of the stupid questions (yes, I believe there ARE stupid questions). Here are my two classics. The first guy is the one we all don't want to answer and the second is my devil's advocate answer.
Pat S. Pat was a home improvement contractor who took my (Adult Ed) "Occupational Electrical Wiring" class thru the County I teach for. On the first day I asked them why they took the classs. Pat's answer "I'm gonna do electrical stuff whether they let me or not so I figure I may as well learn to do it right". Well 3 weeks after the class ended my phone rang at 4AM. It was Pat, he was in Las Vegas (I'm in the DC/VA area) and did something that killed all the lights at his brother's house and wanted my advice. I told him to check his notes from class. To this day I have no idea what became of him (or his brother's house).
Bill E. He came to the same class and responded with "I have been a licensed Journeyman for 12 years but all I do is industrial controls. I've haven't seen the inside of an electrical panel since I was an apprentice. I need a review so I can work on my own house".

I have no problem talking to a guy like Bill, but Pat scares me.

Read This:

https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000003.html

More discussion may be useful now after a while and may be good for all members.

oksurefine.....

I suggest that any form of licensing, and/or certification be thrown out here, and the karate belt system be instituted......

Belts could be granted on the consensus of the group, per caliber of response given over an anual period X's posts...



all bow in the dojo....

I have been given the title by my state 'Master Electrician'.To me this is an oxymoron.Everybody can learn from something new.To me you have to deal with each question individually, and then determine if it is a potential novice hazard.Trust me i will probably,if already havent asked a stupid question.It kind of keeps us from truly thinking that we are 'MASTER ELECTRICIANS'..
SCjohn

scjohn,
> 2740 posts
>10,000's of moments wondering about them on the job
>1000's of humbling moments
>100's of misconceptions 'relearned'
>many hours floggin' the good book
>end result.....priceless.....

enter ninjas..

"when you can snatch the wirenuts from my hand you may leave grasshopper.."

I'd have to say that leaves me out too. I am untrained, (in my job that is when I get off of it ), but that does not mean that i don't want to do the job correctly. I look to this forum to learn, and have, extensivly.
For that thanks. But does this mean that I have to leave?
Trainwire

Trainwire,

You are a valued member of this Forum.
I think that Sparky is practicing his stand-up routine here.

Bill

Thanks Bill

Trainwire

ANYONE who truly thinks they've mastered this trade just isn't paying attention.

I never knew how much I had to learn til I thought I knew it all.

That reminds me of the old joke: "Those people who think they know everything annoy those of us who do."

Seriously though, we never stop learning. No matter how much we may think we know, there is always something new just around the corner, or another way of loooking at a problem. That applies to each of us individually and to mankind as a whole.

If ECN had some sort of entry test, then I wonder whether I would be here now. O.K., if it just covered basic theory no problem, but what if such a test had included some substantial knowledge of the NEC?

Sure, I came to this forum with a rough idea of typical U.S. circuit arrangements in the home and a lot more understanding of American practices than most people over here have (he says modestly!). But could I have passed a NEC quiz?

I have learned much from you all over the months, and certainly have a much better understanding of many of the more obscure points of U.S. practice.

Thanks to the kindness of an ECN member I now even have my own copy of the 2002 NEC which will provide bedtime reading for about the next six months!

I couldn't agree with you more, George. I've been around a few master electricians who had a chip on their shoulder. After I got my masters, I realized the full weight of my position, and I have more questions now, than I do answers.

Wish I knew more,
Doc

LOL!


well i do have a piece of paper the state gave me....

but the reality is i simply drag my sack of laundry from forum to forum.......

Look here, this Forum is over 5 years old! Lots of new kids have joined since the beginning!

Nice job Bill!

Remember Smoking and Drinking are unhealthy!