Extending 3 wire a dryer circuit, doesn't seem any reason to use a 10-4 NM since I am tieing into a 10-3. Would there be any advange as far as hooking up the newer 4 wire dryers which the customer will probably use? I would have to tie the nuetral and ground together, or the new dryer would have to have a 3 wire cord put on it. Guess that would work too.
You would never need any more than 10/3 with ground on a dryer. The neutral does need to be insulated when using RX so you cant use 10/2 but there is an exception allowing SE if this is coming from the panel with the service disconnect.
10-4 NM doesn't exist. Is it 10-3 with a ground?
I believe the OP has the following setup: 10/2 w/ ground to panel. OP would like to know weather to use 10/2 or 10/3 (w/ ground) for the extension.
My advice: replace the exisiting circuit with new 10/3 w/ground to the panel.
This is one of those situations where you have to choose: will it be fish or fowl? Either is better than a mash of both together!
You want to keep the existing dryer unchanged, and extend the existing circuit ... stick with the same number of conductors.
You want to be compliant with the newer codes, make a new run with the additional wire, get a new cord for the dryer, and DISCONNECT THE BONDing strap inside the dryer.
Just using 'new' wire for the extension, and having a new receptacle that LOOKS like it has a neutral, but does not, is the worst possible way to do things.
when all else fails, hire and pay small price to do right once.
Yes I meant 10-3 with ground, actually I checked this and it has a black, white, and red, no ground wire, 10-3 NM with no ground, I've never seen this wire before.
Anyway I'll just run a 10-3 with ground so at least the 3rd wire will be white and insulated. The old dryer is tied into the 3 terminals but not to ground, and there is no jumper, (being an older one) so not sure if they grounded the white nuetral inside the dryer or not.
Is the old wire armoured? If it is the armour is the ground, albeit a questionable one.
If you extend a existing 3 wire dryer/range receptacle,wouldnt you need to bring it up to compliance w/ current code(s) since 250.140 applies to EXISTING installations and if one extends it IMO it would no longer be existing....
A good point, Norcal. One could very easily make that argument, and that is certainly the preferred solution.
I guess I've become a bit jaded, having seen far too many DIY/hack jobs. I guess that's why I even described a way to extend the old circuit .... I had the feeling that was something we were not being told, and I didn't want a half-baked job being done.
Just like simply replacing a two-prong receptacle with a three-prong version is not, in any way, an "upgrade," I didn't want there to be a dryer with a 4-prong receptacle on a circuit that didn't have all four wires going all the way back to the panel. Or, any of the other nightmares where things were not done completely.
Are you sure the ground is not cut off at the jacket? You might be able to snake up enough slack to get to it.
Even when they used 3 prong plugs a lot of electricians would go ahead an terminate that ground wire in the box or back strap of a bakelite receptacle. Those who were baffled would just cut off the ground wire
If you extend a existing 3 wire dryer/range receptacle,wouldnt you need to bring it up to compliance w/ current code(s) since 250.140 applies to EXISTING installations and if one extends it IMO it would no longer be existing....
Yes it should be brought up to code, too ,many guys afraid to tell the homeowner, it should be code compliant, not wanting to open the walls or spend the money, is not a valid reason, to ignore the code
I did see 10/3 w/ no EGC installed in the 90's....
I can't imagine how many places I've seen with 10/3 for dryers and 6/3 for ranges with no EGC around here. I remember installing those types of cable back in the 1970's by the thousands of feet in new construction. I remember buying a roll of 6/3 Romex and being asked "with or without". Like a Philly cheesesteak.
Aluminum SEU became more economical in the early 80's. We ran a ton of that too for the same appliances. We even ran 8/3 SEU for water heaters in new construction. I shake my head at the idea of using that cable for water heaters these days.
My house was built in late 1992 (1993 for all intensive purposes). My range and dryer were wired with three conductor aluminum SEU cable. When I installed a generator, I replaced the feed to the range with 6/3 (3 conductor w/ground) Romex since the range was now behind a sub-panel.
Sorry to drift off-topic, but there are so many tens of thousands upon thousands of 3-wire range/dryer circuits out there that haven't killed anyone. I'd tend to think that homeowners confused by the 3 / 4 wire convention will cause more harm due to failure to remove the bonding screw/strap when connecting a major appliance.
Mixing bonding and grounding with current-carrying conductors is a subject that the general public will never completely understand, nor will the debate regarding this subject ever end.
If you extend a existing 3 wire dryer/range receptacle,wouldnt you need to bring it up to compliance w/ current code(s) since 250.140 applies to EXISTING installations and if one extends it IMO it would no longer be existing....
Yes it should be brought up to code, too ,many guys afraid to tell the homeowner, it should be code compliant, not wanting to open the walls or spend the money, is not a valid reason, to ignore the code
Good point Les,
You guys are lucky that you don't have "Self-Certification" over there, you can marry yourself to all sorts of problems if you either don't inform the Home-owner or blindly install something that would never pass an Inspection.
With Self-Certification, you are audited every March and are asked to send in a certain percentage of your Certificates of Compliance to the Registration Board here, an Independant Inspector will look at your CoC's and will then look at the work done.
There have been Electricians AND Inspectors de-registered with the audit system, here, it keeps everyone honest, to a degree.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Mike,
The way it stands now, I think many are confused on what to do, but the code is clear, run the 4 wire, however there are many guys that will stay with the 3 wire, as one one of the posters noted, the internal wiring in the dryer, must be checked also, my feeling was if the existing feed is 3 wire, then replace the dryer with a 3 wire plug, the problem is if you do that now, your in violation, and that spells liability, a am sure, you will still find plenty of hacks to do whatever you want.
[quote=LK
Yes it should be brought up to code, too ,many guys afraid to tell the homeowner, it should be code compliant, not wanting to open the walls or spend the money, is not a valid reason, to ignore the code [/quote]
(acknowledge, "not a valid reason")
"Afraid" OF WHAT? Some "jamoke" under bidding you?
Simple example of us all "chocking" each other (castrateing if you will).
Code is the code. Responsability is responsability.
If you don't have the "nads" or conviction to do it right... Do something else.
AFRAID my @##. It's your license, your house your Family!
Do it correctly or stay away!
One way. the correct way.
And the sooner we all accept that. The better off we all will be.
When "Joe" home " Improvement" guy screws up. His/their problem.
[quote=LK
Yes it should be brought up to code, too ,many guys afraid to tell the homeowner, it should be code compliant, not wanting to open the walls or spend the money, is not a valid reason, to ignore the code
(acknowledge, "not a valid reason")
"Afraid" OF WHAT? Some "jamoke" under bidding you?
Simple example of us all "chocking" each other (castrateing if you will).
Code is the code. Responsability is responsability.
If you don't have the "nads" or conviction to do it right... Do something else.
AFRAID my @##. It's your license, your house your Family!
Do it correctly or stay away!
One way. the correct way.
And the sooner we all accept that. The better off we all will be.
When "Joe" home " Improvement" guy screws up. His/their problem. [/quote]
They are afraid they will loose the job, to some hack that will do anything, if they suggest the walls have to be opened.
Why open walls? 99% of the time thats not needed. We're not Plumbers.
The last 2 new dryers I hooked up didn't have the strap to be removed. They where all ready for the 4 wire dryer cord. I guess the manufactures can save 2 cents by compling, and not putting the strap in.
Ob
I've noticed that with ranges too. One range included a tag on the neutral terminal warning that if a three-wire circuit was used, an optional kit of parts was required (bond strap and a screw, I'm sure). I seriously doubt that any DIY or even appliance installer is going to bother. Despite the NEC's good intentions to support the manufacturer's marketing needs (see AFCI, tamper-resistant receptacles, weatherproof receptacles, etc.), it would seem that we now just have lots of dryers and ranges being connected with no form of frame ground whatsoever.