Be nice now!
(Not a request for punchlines here )

I've mentioned to a Lawyer associated with our local contractors' association that we sometimes come up with Legal questions or issues now and then that we could use some advice or guidance on.
Anyone remember any past discussions?

His name is Rob. He seems like a pretty dedicated guy (I'm hoping with a sense of humor sometimes needed for this place) and often gives us advice regarding things such as Contracts, Liens, etc. I figure that he would be a asset to our group that might be able to give us some general insight or advice now and then. What do you think? Any Questions or interesting Legal issues?

Bill

Bill,
Boy he better have a sense of humor. You realize his answers will be evasive by nature, bless his oily hide

Great idea, we may not always like his answers, but I'm certain he would be a real asset.

Bill:

I agree, the advice from a Lawyer would be very helpful.

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 04-20-2002).]

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[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 06-12-2002).]

well....they did not teach me anything about contracting in my apprenticeship, therefor, any 'legalities' of my orgin are totaly off the cuff...

If you need a lawyer, you'd better get one that is familiar with contracting 7 the laws that affect it. This can be a very specialized area.

A couple of the trade magazines have a monthly legal article that most of us gloss over. Read a few of them & you'll find out why you need a specialized attorney
Why is it, when a town has one lawyer what they have is a starving lawyer. Another town has two lawyers & what they have are two prosperous attorneys.

Tom

I think it would be a great addition to the forum. Besides, you already have a Doctor.
On a serious note, we all need to have a better idea of where our responsibilities "begin" and "end". I don't say that for the "cya" factor, but for the simple fact that better understanding (knowledge) is the road to better relationships with customers, employees, employers, subcontractors, etc, etc, etc, and the better those relationships are, the more profit, better service, more efficient business processes, etc.

Best Legalogical Regards,
Doc
Director of Wattology, Electric University

Bill:
I think it would be a great Idea. Every year in my state we need so much business hours and the class I go to they bring in a Lawyer/CPA and he goes over various legal aspects.
One thing that he stresses is not so much contracts and liens but owner-employee relationships and the Liability involved.
One example he gave this past year was about a contractor whose employee while on a lunch-break held up a Bank with the company truck, and you guessed it the Employer was in part liable.
Great Idea,
-Mark-

Having various consultants informally ride herd increases the value of a discussion group. As far as some not liking particular answers, that rarely stops anyone from thrashing an installation description or photo with open critiques here, does it? We just need to remember that the opinions provided may evolve from their experience that pays the bills during the daylight hours. in the same way that folks here generally advise getting {paid!} professional help fast if a poster is in over his head, we should offer the same courtesy to advisors in non-electrical issues.

Mark,

You brought up an interesting thought. I'm wondering how many areas of the country, or how many people here had some sort of requisite training or testing (for License/Certification) that wasn't strictly electrical? Do you have separate Electrical and Contracting exams/Licenses/Certifications?

Bill

Bill:
In Ohio, we are required to have 10 hours of continuing education every year for our state license renewal. Of that 10 hours, 7 code, 1 osha, 1 technology, and 1 for business.
The Lawyer that they bring in for the classes I take is always the same guy, hes really interesting, and he covers everything from contracts to Agency-relations. By the time we are done we have a 2" notebook size of handouts on Agency-relationships and how to proceed with a Mechanics Lien.
For example for a Mechanics Lien, we as contractors would furnish a 'Notice of Furnishing' This has to be filed with in 20 days, and the customer, if smart, will file a Notice of Commencement, this protects the Sub and the customer.
But the tricky part is to figure is to figure out who the notice is for the GC or the customer himself. Our local suppliers, have now insisted on a copy of the NOF if the material is greater than $5000, One of our local contractors did not do this and went belly-up because the GC never paid him, he owed the supplier over 100 grand, and the supplier had to eat it, of course the contractor lost everything, his house, business and all his credit. The GC got paid but hasnt been seen since. The sub-contractor did not file a NoF and of course did not have any recourse except to suit the GC and the owner of the drug-store was not liable because he paid the GC.
But the liability thing is what scares me, if one of your employees goes to lunch and gets drunk and has an accident you are just as liable. You cant fire the guy because he can come back an suit you on the ADA law, because he will now claim he has a disability, ie Alcholism. It just goes on and on and on..
And Bill if you can get a Lawyer it would be a great benefit.
-Mark-

Bill,
The thread "Lost in Tuscan" (sic) may be a great place the barrister would be welcome. A fairly straight forward question regarding contractor/client responsibilities.

Also, regarding the employee holding up the bank, how about the bank holding up the employee I mean check the interest rates out, their criminal, nah, I don't suppose legalized crime would be a great place for discussion.

Seriously, liens, responsibilities, and duties, would be a welcome area of discussion and certainly I think we all could benefit.

FYI, Virginia now requires a test to be taken by all potential contractors on a small booklet about their contracting law. At this point you only have to see it once and you're in. We are only now beginning to require continuing education credits to maintain the masters status. That's a boon to me.....eh, sorry Joe

I think it would be great to have some one here that speaks fluent "Legal-eeze", not just to help out on the Contract type questions, but to cover the "Fine-Line" of legal issues when a member consults someone with "How-To" information.

Mainly, it would be great to see some of the legal issues we all are faced with somewhat cleared up [or discussed for eons...].

Scott SET

Hey fellas, sorry for tardy entrance - only about 2 weeks after my introduction, I promise my response time will be better in the future. As Bill said my name is Robert Ibraham, I am a Lawyer licensed to practice in New York & Connecticut; I am also of Counsel to the Suffolk County Electrical Contractors Association. Most of the problems that contractors come to me with are rarely unique, usually the same problem has been encountered by dozens of others before. With this in mind I would love for you guys to take advantage of the experiences that I have encountered in helping your brother contactors. Please feel free to email me directly at Ribraham@law.com or post here at https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ so all can partake in the discussion.

Me and "my oily hide" look forward to hearing from you.

Rob,

Thanks for finally joining us. I look forward to your input.

Bill

Bill,

In response to your question - "How many people here had certification testing that wasn't strickly electrical". When I took my master electricians examination there were questions on business practice, business math and business ethics. There were also OSHA questions. If I remember correctly, they were listed toward the end of the examination.

Frank

Robert,
Welcome, I look forward to seeing your response to some of our problems and questions.

A friend of mine taught me long ago, "Good advice is worth more than gold". Thanks for taking your assuredly valuable time.

Robert I could fill your week with questions but don't know if there is any federal laws that would apply we have here in Indiana no state licensing so some of our local city's and county's have testing to get the license and some are very fair but some have test that go way beyond what I would say is necessary to show that you are qualified and some are set up to allow the test givers to discriminate between contractors on who will work in there city or county this to me should be illegal we do have a state inspector that by law has to make an interpretation of the code but no contractor here will even think of using him because of reprisals from the local inspectors. there has been some law suits against a unit but most were lost except one that now allows us to use NM cable. is there any federal codes that a test has to follow some kind of standard? and how does a grand father clause work if there is any

[This message has been edited by hurk27 (edited 05-16-2002).]

Dear Mr. Lawyer,

I heard in a seminar that I went to that you can not lein a owner occupied residence if you are subcontracted by a General Contractor. But if you have a contract with the owner of the house then you are allowed to lien the house.

Is this true?

This is in response to Hurk 27's question about Federal application to test standards, I am unaware of an Federal standards for licensing procedures, obviously tests cannot be arbitrary or capricious, if you truly feel that the local boards do put questions on the test with the sole purpose of picking and choosing who gets licensed, someone should bring a discrimination suit. As far as Grandfathering an electrical license.....I have yet to encounter a situation, not sure if it exists, I am going to ask around to a few of the older guys and see if they ever encountered it, or maybe one of these guys can throw in there two cents.

This is in response to Straightedge's question about Mechanic's liens- In NY anyone doing work or supplying material to a residential homeowner, with his/her conscent, has the right to file a lien against the property. That goes to contractor, sub-contractor or lumber yard. The law was designed to protect material-men from being cheated and the homeowner from being unjustly enriched, following that line of reasoning it is easy to see why the sub can file the lien, even without having the privity of contract with the homeowner.

Robert;
perhaps you could touch on the more repetitive mistakes that we as contractors make, maybe those that would merely require us to learn proper preventive techniques?

Sparky,

You would probably do better putting your question over at Robs' thread that he started ( here ) so that it would send him an email. I am not sure how often he checks in on things around here.

Bill

The biggest mistake in NY is the Statute of limitations on filing We have 4 months (on a residential property) to file the lien with the county. Usually this time period is eaten up by half hearted collection attempts. As far as all other procedural things they are straight forward. The only other quasi speed bump, that a suprising number of contractors get caught on is Conscent. You must have permission of the property owner, not a tenant or family member, to do the work in order to be entitled to file in Lien. In the event of a landlord/tenant siuation (mostly commercial settings i.e. store fronts), a short authorization to do improvements form signed by the Landlord is good practice before begining. With regards to family members, Some states (NY being one of them) have construed certain family members to be agents of the property owner, therefore allowing a lien to be placed. For a bit more info on Mechanic liens see the same title forum listed in the General discussion area.