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#79517 - 01/02/02 04:36 PM Removal of Abandonded Wiring
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
All Members Do you Agree? Disagree? Why ___

I think all abandoned wiring in buildings should be removed, or put in order with covers installed.

NOTE: The new 2002 NEC now calls for abandoned wiring for some Chapter 6, 7, and 8 wiring methods to be removed or tagged -- this is to help lighten the fire load.
_________________________
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#79518 - 01/02/02 05:25 PM Re: Removal of Abandonded Wiring
Anonymous
Unregistered


I could not agree more with maybe a little reservation. Nothing irritates me more than to open up conduits, troughs, JB's, and even panels to discover miles of unused and abandoned wiring. I consider that to be a sign of laziness on the part of my precursor on the job. Granted, a lot of wiring is left in place for future use. At the time that wire is no longer going to be used, it should be removed. I have run into many instances where old wire has been left in conduit and the new replacement wire ahs been put in the same conduit. It only makes sense to me to remove the abandoned wire and I think it makes for a neater, more professional job.

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#79519 - 01/03/02 04:48 AM Re: Removal of Abandonded Wiring
electure Offline

Member

Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4226
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
Joe,
I agree with you (and the City of Los Angeles) all the way. Identifying circuits and conductors that go "nowhere" is a royal pain. You just can't tell what you're working with. When these can be readily or accidentally energized again, it becomes a royal hazard.

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#79520 - 01/03/02 12:13 PM Re: Removal of Abandonded Wiring
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
Many times in a residential rewire ( fish job) the BX is installed thru holes that are just to size ( bit & brace?) , so they do not pull out. I simply wire nut all conductors together for burial.

to add, yes Joe, i agree the unused wiring should be dealt with in some manner.

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 01-03-2002).]

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#79521 - 01/04/02 11:45 PM Re: Removal of Abandonded Wiring
Scott35 Offline

Broom Pusher and
Member

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 2724
Loc: Anaheim, CA. USA
To me, there's something really suck-ee about leaving unused circuitry hanging around. A few homeruns are not too bad - that way when it's time to add more workstations or whatever, there's at least something relatively clean and easy for the next guy.

A bunch of deleted branch circuits, plus empty conduits - even CAT 3/5 runs from the N.E.R. to where the old P.O.C was - just SUCKS!!!

Scott SET
_________________________
Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

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#79522 - 01/05/02 04:51 AM Re: Removal of Abandonded Wiring
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
 Quote:
just SUCKS!!!


LOL! Scott....i(we)agree !



neatness counts...

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#79523 - 01/05/02 09:45 AM Re: Removal of Abandonded Wiring
Elzappr Offline
Member

Registered: 12/20/01
Posts: 273
Loc: Oregon
Joe, I think your proposal has merit, but for the issue of defining "abandoned". One man's 'abandoned' wire is another man's 'future'.This comes up quite frequently in industrial control wiring, especially when the conduit is maxed out with control wiring per old code..with no regard for derating..and it would be too disruptive and expensive to try to get the wires out. (I know..money isn't what the code is focusing on..unless you see the words, "where practicable")
On the other hand, it certainly would help in situations like I came across in a job recently..they used the old conduit and wires to feed some lights, using black/red/blue, and used brown/orange/yellow for phase colors in the added wiring. This mixed color scheme for the 277V lighting resulted from the effort by the foreman to save some money for the contractor by utilizing the old 'abandoned' wiring!
Then there are the cases like lifting a ceiling tile and finding a 3/4 flex laying on the ceiling with 6 hot wires..with just yellow wirenuts capping them off!

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#79524 - 01/05/02 12:27 PM Re: Removal of Abandonded Wiring
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
Elzappr:

I agree. Here is the proposal that was sent in for the 2002 NEC. The Reject is supported by a technical reason from the code panel.

(Log #2760)
1- 207 - (110-3(c)): Reject
SUBMITTER:
RECOMMENDATION: Add new text:
Permanent wiring abandoned in place shall be tagged or otherwise
identified at its termination and junction points as "Abandoned in
Place" or removed from all accessible areas and insulated from
contact with other live electrical wiring or devices.
SUBSTANTIATION: Electrical fire safety section 3-2.4 in NFPA 1
Fire Prevention Code should be added to NEC 2002.
PANEL ACTION: Reject.
PANEL STATEMENT: The submitter has not provided any
substantiation to address such a broad requirement. The
establishment and enforcement procedures concerning
maintenance requirements and identification of electrical
equipment not in use is better left to other codes and documents
such as NFPA 1.
NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 13
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:
AFFIRMATIVE: 11
NEGATIVE: 1
NOT RETURNED: 1 Macias
EXPLANATION OF NEGATIVE:
ANTHONY: This seems to me to be a modest proposal. It does
not require removal of old cable which, while recommended, is not
always practical. It simply asks for them to be tagged from this point
forward. Furthermore, it is theoretically possible - though,
admittedly unlikely - that voltages can be induced in abandoned
cables in proximity to energized cables. A combustible material in
contact with a live end could pose a fire hazard.
_________________________
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#79525 - 01/05/02 12:35 PM Re: Removal of Abandonded Wiring
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
Here are the new rules and some those that already existed in the 2002 NEC.

When an outlet is abandoned, discontinued, or removed, the sections of circuit conductors supplying the outlet shall be removed from the raceway. No splices or reinsulated conductors, such as would be the case of abandoned outlets on loop wiring, shall be allowed in raceways.

When an outlet is abandoned, discontinued, or removed, the sections of circuit conductors supplying the outlet shall be removed from the raceway. No splices or reinsulated conductors, such as would be the case with abandoned outlets on loop wiring, shall be allowed in raceways.

When an outlet is abandoned, discontinued, or removed, the sections of circuit conductors supplying the outlet shall be removed from the raceway. No splices or reinsulated conductors, such as would be the case with abandoned outlets on loop wiring, shall be allowed in raceways.

Abandoned Audio Distribution Cable. Installed audio distribution cable that is not terminated at equipment and not identified for future use with a tag.

(A) Spread of Fire or Products of Combustion. The accessible portion of abandoned audio distribution cables shall not be permitted to remain. See 300.21.

(6) Abandoned cables shall not be permitted to remain unless contained in metal raceways.
Abandoned Class 2, Class 3, and PLTC Cable. Installed Class 2, Class 3, and PLTC cable that is not terminated at equipment and not identified for future use with a tag.

(B) Spread of Fire or Products of Combustion. Section 300.21. The accessible portion of abandoned Class 2, Class 3, and PLTC cables shall not be permitted to remain.

(A) Plenum. Cables installed in ducts, plenums, and other spaces used for environmental air shall be Type CL2P or CL3P. Abandoned cables shall not be permitted to remain. Listed wires and cables installed in compliance with 300.22 shall be permitted.

(1) Cables installed in vertical runs and penetrating more than one floor, or cables installed in vertical runs in a shaft, shall be Type CL2R or CL3R. Floor penetrations requiring Type CL2R or CL3R shall contain only cables suitable for riser or plenum use. Abandoned cables shall not be permitted to remain.

(E) Other Wiring Within Buildings. Cables installed in building locations other than those covered in 725.61(A) through (D) shall be as described in any of (1) through (6). Abandoned cables in hollow spaces shall not be permitted to remain.

Abandoned Fire Alarm Cable. Installed fire alarm cable that is not terminated at equipment other than a connector and not identified for future use with a tag.

(A) Spread of Fire or Products of Combustion. Section 300.21. The accessible portion of abandoned fire alarm cables shall not be permitted to remain.

(A) Plenum. Cables installed in ducts, plenums, and other spaces used for environmental air shall be Type FPLP. Abandoned cables shall not be permitted to remain. Types FPLP, FPLR, and FPL cables installed in compliance with 300.22 shall be permitted.

(1) Cables installed in vertical runs and penetrating more than one floor, or cables installed in vertical runs in a shaft, shall be Type FPLR. Floor penetrations requiring Type FPLR shall contain only cables suitable for riser or plenum use. Abandoned cables shall not be permitted to remain.

Abandoned Optical Fiber Cable. Installed optical fiber cable that is not terminated at equipment other than a connector and not identified for future use with a tag.

(A) Spread of Fire or Products of Combustion. The requirements of 300.21 for electrical installations shall also apply to installations of optical fiber cables and raceways. The accessible portion of abandoned optical fiber cables shall not be permitted to remain.
(A) Plenum. Cables installed in ducts, plenums, and other spaces used for environmental air shall be Type OFNP or OFCP. Abandoned cables shall not be permitted to remain. Types OFNR, OFCR, OFNG, OFN, OFCG, and OFC cables installed in compliance with 300.22 shall be permitted.

Listed plenum optical fiber raceways shall be permitted to be installed in ducts and plenums as described in 300.22(B) and in other spaces used for environmental air as described in 300.22(C). Only types OFNP and OFCP cables shall be permitted to be installed in these raceways.

(1) Cables installed in vertical runs and penetrating more than one floor, or cables installed in vertical runs in a shaft, shall be Type OFNR or OFCR. Floor penetrations requiring Type OFNR or OFCR shall contain only cables suitable for riser or plenum use.

Abandoned cables shall not be permitted to remain. Listed riser optical fiber raceways shall be permitted to be installed in vertical riser runs in a shaft from floor to floor. Only Types OFNP, OFCP, OFNR and OFCR cables shall be permitted to be installed in these raceways.

Abandoned Communications Cable. Installed communications cable that is not terminated at both ends at a connector or other equipment and not identified for future use with a tag.

The accessible portion of abandoned communications cables shall not be permitted to remain.

(A) Plenum. Cables installed in ducts, plenums, and other spaces used for environmental air shall be Type CMP.

Abandoned cables shall not be permitted to remain. Types CMP, CMR, CMG, CM, and CMX and communications wire installed in compliance with 300.22 shall be permitted. Listed plenum communications raceways shall be permitted to be installed in ducts and plenums as described in 300.22(B) and in other spaces used for environmental air as described in 300.22(C). Only Type CMP cable shall be permitted to be installed in these raceways.

(1) Cables in Vertical Runs. Cables installed in vertical runs and penetrating more than one floor, or cables installed in vertical runs in a shaft, shall be Type CMR.

Floor penetrations requiring Type CMR shall contain only cables suitable for riser or plenum use. Abandoned cables shall not be permitted to remain. Listed riser communications raceways shall be permitted to be installed in vertical riser runs in a shaft from floor to floor. Only Type CMR and CMP cables shall be permitted to be installed in these raceways.

Abandoned Coaxial Cable. Installed coaxial cable that is not terminated at equipment other than a coaxial connector and not identified for future use with a tag.

(A) Spread of Fire or Products of Combustion. Section 300.21 shall apply. The accessible portion of abandoned coaxial cables shall not be permitted to remain.

(A) Plenum. Cables installed in ducts, plenums, and other spaces used for environmental air shall be Type CATVP.

Abandoned cables shall not be permitted to remain. Types CATVP, CATVR, CATV, and CATVX cables installed in compliance with 300.22 shall be permitted.

(1) Cables in Vertical Runs. Cables installed in vertical runs and penetrating more than one floor, or cables installed in vertical runs in a shaft, shall be Type CATVR. Floor penetrations requiring Type CATVR shall contain only cables suitable for riser or plenum use. Abandoned cables shall not be permitted to remain.

(D) Other Wiring Within Buildings. Cables installed in building locations other than the locations covered in 820.53(A) and (B) shall be with any of the requirements in 820.53(D)(1) through (5). Abandoned cables in hollow spaces shall not be permitted to remain.

Abandoned Network-Powered Broadband Communications Cable. Installed network-powered broadband communications cable that is not terminated at equipment other than a connector and not identified for future use with a tag.

(A) Spread of Fire or Products of Combustion. Section 300.21 shall apply. The accessible portion of abandoned network-powered broadband communications cables shall not be permitted to remain.

(B) Ducts, Plenums, and Other Air-Handling Spaces. Cables installed in ducts, plenums, and other spaces used for environmental air shall be Type BLP. Abandoned cables shall not be permitted to remain. Type BLX cable installed in compliance with 300.22 shall be permitted.

(1) Cables in Vertical Runs. Cables installed in vertical runs and penetrating more than one floor, or cables installed in vertical runs in a shaft, shall be Type BLP or BMR. Floor penetrations requiring Type BMR shall contain only cables suitable for riser or plenum use. Abandoned cables shall not be permitted to remain.
_________________________
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#79526 - 01/05/02 01:09 PM Re: Removal of Abandonded Wiring
resqcapt19 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2209
Loc: IL
Joe,
Does the wording of the new sections requiring removal of abandoned low voltage wiring require that it be removed from the conduits, or just when the cable is run in the open?Don(resqcapt19)
_________________________
Don(resqcapt19)

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